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| General Freediving General discussion on Freediving. |
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#31
June 20th, 2008
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Trips good, Chris is wonderfully crazy. Weather is interesting up here. Beautiful when we arrived at the hotel, beautiful when we left to go diving, Thirty minutes later mega lighning as we start to get in the water, walk back to the car to be greeted by dime sized hail, LOTS of it. Thirty minutes later beautiful. Interesting. More later, this makes a good tale.
Connor 
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#32
June 21st, 2008
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completely unrelated to anything but exhale diving...the paranoid side of me had this crazy thought.....someday, someone, somehow, is going to frc dive, sink, start thier swim up and lose their sense of direction and swim the wrong way......since there is no bouyancy, couldn't someone just get misdirected or confused, and start swimming sideways instead of up and then before ya know it, bam, it's too late to figure it out.....just curious, any thoughts?
It's probably the dumbest thing ever, but hey, thats me. -Brian
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#33
June 21st, 2008
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Brian, I guess we all sink downwards, so probably swimming upwards is natural...
It's probably also the dumbest answers, but hey, thats me. Miguèl
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#34
June 22nd, 2008
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Well, if diving in blue water, then you can definitely loose orientation for example when rupturing your ear drum. Though just today I saw two relative novices (to vertical disciplines) ending to swim horizontally after the duck dive, instead of descending along the line. One of them even managed to snap his lanyard (really bad quality one), and swam away from the line, but fortunately he was sufficiently buoyant so popped back up to the surface. That was not caused by an eardrum rupture, but they simply did a classical beginner mistake and attempted to descend looking down, and arcing their back. Messing their duck dive, they did not see the descent line in front of their face, and did not manage to get their orientation right.
Diving along a line, close to a riff or a natural wall, or attached with a line to a float is good safety measure. And of course, having experienced buddies close by is even more important.
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#35
June 23rd, 2008
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Well, this is coming along. I just spent a week diving Lake Michigan (thank you Fondueset), mostly shallow, down to 65 ft, all exhale, usually much more exhale than previously. I was exhaling to about 1/2 lung mostly, sometimes more. Felt fine, getting real comfortable, no problem equalizing, even on the deeper dives. Dive time, after I got used to wearing a 6 mil straight jacket and feeling like a bloated whale, was nearly the same as in Florida and beginning to exceed what I would have been doing on full lung. This was the first time I could do real diving on exhale for an extended number of days and it really helped. Its becoming natural to exhale before diving and adjusting the exhale amount to the depth is getting automatic. This works.
Connor
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#36
July 14th, 2008
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Hello,
I've been reading here for about two years now but never posted anything because almost all of my questions have been asked before and answered therefore aswell. But now i have a few questions about FRC diving and i couldn't find a satisfying answer. 1.) As mentioned in many posts before you have to train your mouthfill for deeper FRC diving. But does that mean you only get one mouthfill at the surface ? How does Eric dive to 67 m with that ? 2.) Do you do a different breath up ? What breath up would be best ? Just trying to relax or extensive breath up ? 3.) Packing : If I want myself getting in a frc “mode” you recommend not to pack at all, not even for flexibility training did I get that right ? Most of the experienced frc gurus here did a lot of packing in their previous freediving career . So im not sure wether some kind of “base flexibility” should be achieved by some packing exercises before reducing packing to reverse packs only ( reverse packs are ok as a dry exercise for frc ?). I hope it wasn’t all answered before and I missed it Tommy
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#37
July 14th, 2008
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Hi Tommy
They may have been a long time coming, but those are good questions. I hope Laminar, Eric, or? will chime in with some definitive info, but here is my, less than expert, take. Mouthfill: Depends on how much you exhale. In most cases you can get a mouthfill at depth, just not as deep as full lung. After that, possible max depth depends on flexibility, residual volume and adaptation of the lung tissue to negative pressure, all of which are improved by continued exhale diving. Breathup: Mine is different and I suspect that it should be. With exhale diving, the effect of excessive reduction in blood c02 should be more negative than with full lung diving. What makes exhale so good (and safe) is early and strong kick-in of the dive reflex, which is delayed by low co2. Therefore, I have reduced my purge breaths to 1 from 4. Zero might be better; I'm working on it. Laminar doesn't purge at all and uses what he calls submaximal breathing. Search for his posts on that. Packing: This is one for the experts. My sense is that my max lung volume is shrinking as i do exclusively exhale diving. I've started doing a few packing sessions dry, just to stretch, trying to maintain max volume. I suspect that too much of that could hurt exhale dive ability, not sure though. Reverse packing is tricky, very easy to hurt yourself and not a very good replication of real depth, especially if you go down at a normal speed. Laminar thinks its a bad idea. I'm sure he's right if depth is available on a regular basis. I reverse pack (very carefully and descend very slowly) because I'm stuck in a pool most of the time. Are you doing any exhale diving? Description? Connor Connor
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#38
July 14th, 2008
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Great answers from Connor. I've added some points;
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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 A full exhale only slightly less so. I think, Connor, you were quite surprised by the adaptations for chest flexibility/RV by diving in Michigan for a week on FRC without any negatives (that you told me about). A passive exhale is a more specific stimulus for developing the ability to function at depth below RV. If you are stuck in a pool, I would still recommend a diet of FRC dives in the deep end. You want your body used to FRC, not to full exhale. But yes, after a long time, and given no chance for at least a once a week dive in deeper water, you could try exhaling a little more. But a comfortable lung volume for me is key for long term safety and enjoyment and performance.
__________________
www.seahiker.com www.holdyourbreath.ca ------------------ "I am completely macho at all temperatures." - Fondueset
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#39
July 14th, 2008
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When I started FRC diving I could do a full size mouthfill at 7m maximum. Any deeper and I couldn't get a big fill. Three years later I could get a full size mouthfill at 18m, which is enough to equalize to 100m-120m, if you get a big fill.
At Vertical Blue 2008, on the 67m dive I did the mouthfill around 17m, and I had so much air left in my mouth at 67m that I swallowed it into my stomach at the turn around. I'm sure I had enough to equalize to 100m+.
__________________
Eric Fattah Canada http://www.liquivision.ca "I encourage you to be free in the way you measure your success. I don’t claim to know what it will be like to be in your position, but I know that when you leave here, grades will be handed out differently. Your ability to gauge your success will largely depend on how you perceive it. You can shape it, set it up, feel it, and define it. Allow competition to turn inward. Do not depend on awards, money, or other validations." -Jonny Moseley
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#40
July 15th, 2008
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thank you for your answers so far...
ok i get the point with the mouthfill ... 100m is far beyond my limits  but i couldn't find anything about laminars " submaximal breathing" for the breathup. ( the only post i get as result for a search is this one ) could you give me a link or tell me how to find it ? and for the last point : I wasn't talking about packing for dives but using them as a dry exercise to increase flexibility.I don't know what you did in the past connor but i think eric and laminar did a lot of packing so they already had enough flexibility when they stopped packing. So my question was more refering to dry reverse pack statics and packstretching than pack/reversepack diving. You also recommend not to do this ? Tommy Edit: @ connor I did it during my course in Thailand but more as an exercise . And i always had problems finding the "correct" lung fill so i did everything between full exhale and frc from 8 to 25 meters. but at that time i never thought of it as an actual way to do my rec dives, because i did the dives almost as a static. (You don't need a wetsuit in Thailand so i started falling almost from the surface and just went up the rope in slowmotion) But i really liked it and was very surprised i did my longest dive as "exhale"- even if the only 3 BOs i secured as safety where exhale dives. Last edited by Tommy_R; July 15th, 2008 at 07:36.
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#41
July 15th, 2008
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Quote:
The main purpose of the "breathe up" in my view (the term is misleading and should be changed) is to rest. That's it. If you breathe naturally, you'll have plenty of 02 and get rid of waste products from muscle work. You just need to allow for enough time. Most people ]move around or have tension when they are busy "breathing up." Also, thinking about "breathing up" correctly can cause enough anxiety to make it detrimental. Quote:
After most dive sessions in the old days, my lungs/chest wall would feel stretched, sore and I would often feel like I couldn't get a breath without effort. I was doing something unnatural to my breathing apparatus! After only a few weeks of FRC diving with no other preparation, I quickly surpassed best depths on full exhale (during packing era) with surprising ease. Packing does not equal chest flexibility in a useful way. Now, on to reverse packing, dry and wet. I still think that whether dry or wet, the chance for injury is too great. I've seen and heard of other people get squeezed from dry reverse packing! Stupid! Because the change in pressure is always too fast. Even uddhiyana bandha done incorrectly can hurt you. Reverse packing is beyond that. That said, many do this type of exercise and swear by it. I just think there's an easier way, less stressful that accomplishes the same thing: Focus on stimulus that your body will actually encounter during a dive: 1. Slow long term change in lung volume 2. Dive response activation 3. Lungs and rest of body under same changing ambient pressure The problem I see with dry or wet negatives with or without reverse packing is that both create an unusual pressure on the lungs that is not shared by the rest of the body. At the bottom of the pool on full exhale, your lungs may be at 200m (  ) but the rest of you is still only at 3-4m. Not at all like a real dive. No surprise to me that some people do negatives a lot and: -can't equalize very deeply at all -get squeezed -get pressure contractions and turn around -descend and ascend too fast because they are anxious -end up rushing depth progression so that they don't actually learn much about the changes their body goes through and the wonderful and unpleasant sensations they may encounter. The beauty of FRC and submax breathe up /resting phase is that from the moment you are in the water, your body knows what will be happening: Your body is under pressure greater than 1 ATM. That is consistent for your whole time in the water unless: -you pack -you breach out of the water 10 feet into the air  -you are on Titan 3 This consistency allows your body (IMHAEO) to find a point of equilibrium. Why is FRC so effective in most cases and when done right in helping develop amazing ability to equalize deeply or adapt to pressure? Because while the change in pressure is something that we focus on, the constant state is being at a pressure greater than 1 ATM, even if it is only slightly greater than 1 ATM at the surface. How else do you explain a limit of 8-9m full exhale negative pressure dive (and I do mean full exhale) after three years of variations on packing and inhale diving vs. an increase to 17-18m in two and a half weeks after gentle FRC dives to 15-25m? That's 8-9 dives per session, a session every three days, 5 sessions total. I think the lungs prefer to function within regular parameters as much as possible. There are definitely people who can pack until the cows come home and dive deep. That's not what I'm talking about though. What's the easiest way to dive with the least amount of discomfort and chance for injury? Luckily, FRC will take care of all your need for depth and/or distance.... for most of us, anyway. Pete
__________________
www.seahiker.com www.holdyourbreath.ca ------------------ "I am completely macho at all temperatures." - Fondueset Last edited by laminar; July 15th, 2008 at 09:05.
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#43
July 15th, 2008
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Laminar pretty much says it all. I do things slightly differently because I think my situation is a little different. However, in my experience, he sure has been right a lot. I'm slowly edging toward taking all his advice.
My packing is all dry, never pack to dive, never do reverse pac exhales when diving. Sometimes I do a few 4-5 meter full exhales as a warm up for real diving. My recent pack-stretching is minimal and an attempt to maintain max lung volume, not certain it works, but I am sure that a lot of full lung diving increases my max capacity, by about a liter, very noticeable in the amount of weight I put on the belt. On the advisability of reverse packing dry: Just like wet, be very very careful, descend very slowly and Laminar may be right that it doesn't do much good. I've come close to damaging myself in my very few attempts to do it dry. Its definitely possible. A major part of exhale diving is making the first part of the dive a static, just like you were doing, works great. Getting the lung volume right comes with practice. I had the same problem initially. 3 B0s on exhale in a course? did I get that right? Could you provide some detail on how much exhale, times, depths, other details? Connor
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#44
July 16th, 2008
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@connor
i did a master course over 3 months. That means i've been in the water about 3-4 hours a day ( every day for that 3 months) and i did safety for 50% of all the students in the beginner and advanced courses.So there where a real lot of students and perhaps i just got the ones that had too much party the night before. In the advanced course they do a few frc/exhale dives just to show the students the feeling of getting compressed. And that exercise was the only one any of them got problems. That showed me how hard it is to estimate your reserves o2 during frc dives. None of them was in a mental training state to really push him self to that limit. They just didn't realize they're out of o2 ( one smiled in my face gave me an ok sighn on his way up and boed 2 seconds after that ). None of them fully exhaled and none went down more than 10m but they stayed to long feeling comfortable the whole time. I really like frc diving but i was very careful from that point on Tommy
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#45
July 16th, 2008
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Scary stuff! How long were these guys under? Were they moving around or just hanging on the rope? What kind of breath up were they doing?
I'm aware of cautions about full exhale dives being susceptible to BO and can easilly see why if the dive reflex doesn't kick in early. I don't quite see why what these guys were doing was so different from FRC (or exhale) diving like we do, which makes BO less likely. What's the difference? Connor
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