Hey again, and... why is this??

[superhornet59]

Hi guys, wow it's odd to still log in here.. I haven't been on here in a while! Mostly because of the fact that there aren't really any good dive spots in my region, so I lost touch with my 'inner marine mammal'. But I'm going to the Caribbean soon so I have to get back in shape!

So, question, and it's the same problem as I used to have, but I don't think I ever mentioned it on here.

I'm still in the early stages of training right now, just 4-5 days. After a long time of no diving, I can manage 3:00 minutes in a dry static right now.. (before I give in, not black out).. not bad if I do say so myself

Now.. why is it that I suddenly suck when I'm in the water?

As soon as I get in the water, my times drop to like 1.5 minutes, and contractions come in quick, like almost in the beginning! They're weak, but, for some reason trying to overcome them feels 10x harder than just lying on my bed. I mean, I'm just assuming this is all in my head and I'm just psyching myself out near water.

So.. am I alone in this, or does/did anyone share this? I think it's just all the water sounds and stuff maybe.. I don't get it. And when I get to the bottom of the pool.. I can barely manage a minute..

Anyone else? why is this? can I get around it? Diving in the reefs will suck if contractions creeping in during my descent..

Thanks,

-Matt

[sgnips]

I'm going to the Caribbean soon so I have to get back in shape!
can I get around it? Diving in the reefs will suck if contractions creeping in during my descent..

you lucky!! have you ever thought THIS may be your "problem"? you're going to to the caribbean SOON, and you HAVE to get back in shape...

relax and take your time, stop minding of what you HAVE to do while you're there and simply have fun
you would get back in shape once in the water even without training

oh... well... this sometimes happens to me...

[superhornet59]

I see what you mean, but the thing is that years ago when I trained just for the love of it, it was the same issue. Like I have some kind of mammalian anti-dive reflex or something haha.

What's weird is, it's only a time thing, not a CO2 tolerance related problem. See, I can sit at the bottom of a pool for like 1 minute before I really feel the urge to go back up, but I can also swim about 2 lengths of the pool in the same time, and my breath hold is no more challenging. Odd, you would think, because of the extra CO2 buildup from my exertion.

And, my breath hold is a bit longer if I actually swim around and say, pick up objects scattered around the bottom of the pool. I think I'm just getting bored, and paying too much attention to how uncomfortable I am. I'm hoping with all there is to see in the reefs, that won't be a problem. Its odd though, because I don't get that on dry land.

That, and when I actually go underwater, the pressure obviously decreases my lung size, making me feel like I'm a little empty and need to take a deeper breath. I'm not sure if that will disappear with the whole 'double O2 concentration at 30ft', because I haven't had a chance to dive that deep because I'm always training in pools. Does that 'extra breath' effect come progressively, or just kind of hit you at a certain depth? 10 feet is about the deepest pool I've had a chance to really train in, and I definitely have not felt such an effect so far. If anything, I find it more challenging to hold when I'm deeper underwater because of that 'empty lungs' feeling i just mentioned.


Anyone ever had, and then overcome, anything like this?


-Matt

[sgnips]

paying too much attention to how uncomfortable I am

this is an issue, i would suggest you to take some time and make some "comfortable" apneas: relax a bit, take you breath, then hold (anywhere you like: on the surface, on the bottom, anywhere underwater) and come out just when your body stops giving good signals
it might be 1 minute, 30 seconds, even 10 seconds, no matter how much time, come out, breath again and recall the good feelings
after some practice, good feelings wil last longer and you'll be able to manage what comes after them

[yugyug]

I had this problem for a long time too.... I found it difficult to hold my breath for more than 1.30 or 2 min for static. It didn't affect my spearfishing much because when I was moving I didn't notice it. But when I started to train with freedivers I realised it was holding me back from making good dynamics and greater depth.

The way I resolved it was to become comfortable with inducing my dive reflex, and especially a reduced heart beat. A 1.30 warm up static with your face exposed (no mask) should do that, then move very little and stay relaxed for your recovery, then try 1.30 again or 2 min - it should be much easier the second time. You can then recover and try a third time too for a max attempt, just remember to move very little. Listen to your heart beat and get comfortable with it slowing down. Recoveries don't need to be too long for these times, maybe 1 or 2 min only. And cold(er) water helps.

Of course make sure you have someone watching you for wet statics - and a good system of taps from your training buddy can be a nice psychological support - knowing that they are there to help should anything go wrong can help you push a bit further.

In response to your later comment about diving for depth, I definitely feel a kind of mental second wind after I get below 10 or 12 metres - in some ways diving from 10 to 20 metres is easier (more relaxing) than diving 0 to 10 metres. I'm not sure that this would be true for anyone else tho, it maybe just my mind responding to my dive reflex or maybe just the feel of the water at depth.

[mortenkv]

In response to your later comment about diving for depth, I definitely feel a kind of mental second wind after I get below 10 or 12 metres - in some ways diving from 10 to 20 metres is easier (more relaxing) than diving 0 to 10 metres. I'm not sure that this would be true for anyone else tho, it maybe just my mind responding to my dive reflex or maybe just the feel of the water at depth.

Maybe you also feel as second physical wind in terms of increased 02 concentration in your lungs - due to the doubled ambient pressure?

This increased concentration makes the diffusion of gas (o2 and Co2) in depth much easier.

This is the reason why spearos drown from SWB. Diving deep feels good - no feeling of running out of Oxygen. Until the ascent...

In the ascent the pressure decreases and with that the concentration of O2 - maybe until a critical level and a BO (SWB) occurs.

Morten

[sgnips]

you're right, morten, but i guess the matter is just in superhornet and yugyug heads
i think this one proves that:

my breath hold is a bit longer if I actually swim around and say, pick up objects scattered around the bottom of the pool

also, why looking for deep dives if you're not feeling good on the surface? depth, time, distance are things you should achieve by steps

[yugyug]

Originally Posted by mortenkv

Maybe you also feel as second physical wind in terms of increased 02 concentration in your lungs - due to the doubled ambient pressure?

I don't disagree but shouldn't this a gradual effect? What I experience is more "stepped", in that it occurs beyond 12m but not below 10 metres.

And now that I think about it, I sometimes feel another step in the 17 to 20 metre range - this can be a difficult range for me to get beyond, but once past 20m, going to 25 or so is once again easier, barring equalisation problems.

[superhornet59]

Phew, I'm really glad to hear that I still will get that second-breath feeling, hopefully that will make my stay a lot more enjoyable (although I will definitely be cautious of SWB).

I figured most of this is in my head anyway, like I'll be underwater and nearly bursting for air, and then I give up and right by the surface, at the last second, I figure I can stay a bit longer, that it isn't so bad after all.

It's a shame that I haven't ever gone deep and outside pools, but I'm seriously happy I can finally put this training to good use. It's murder doing static and dynamic workouts in pools with nothing but tiles to see.

Maybe I'm just nervous, I'll head out to the pool tomorrow night and give it another shot.

As for me being bored, how do some of you 6+ minute guys deal with it? Just pure focus, or keeping your thoughts elsewhere? Much as I fight it, my thoughts always wander to the need for air.

And where is Eric Fattah these days? I'd love to hear his explanation for why the second wind is so stepped, I always remember that the best medical information coming from him.

-Matt

[mortenkv]

you're right, morten, but i guess the matter is just in superhornet and yugyug heads
i think this one proves that:
Quote:
my breath hold is a bit longer if I actually swim around and say, pick up objects scattered around the bottom of the pool
also, why looking for deep dives if you're not feeling good on the surface? depth, time, distance are things you should achieve by steps
__________________

True, I think you are right about the mental barrier... - and yes the pressure increasses of course gradually

[sgnips]

i never heard about those "steps" on the pressure feeling, also i'm not sure to understand what you mean by "second-breath feeling": is it something like feeling "empty" due to increased ambient pressure (and reduced air volume in your lungs), so that you would take air again (if you could), but without any urge to breath?

what i usually feel is related to chest compression and begins under 30m, but i can replicate it in 3m in complete exhale, and i don't think this is the case

[yugyug]

hey I don't want to imply that what I feel would be the same for any other diver, and I'm pretty sure these "steps" are just a mental thing. And they could be from a number of factors, for example perhaps becoming neutral and not having put effort into managing buoyancy?

[superhornet59]

Okay guys, so I went to the pool last night, and I'm alot happier with myself this time.

My longest shallow (maybe 3ft underwater) horizontal apnea yesterday was about 50m, so about 165 ft.

Then, I started doing deeper freedives, and managed to do a little under 100 ft while 10 ft underwater (I did that with fins, but before they closed the pool I did the same without fins, but didn't have a chance to retry with them)

My time underwater started increasing to, I tried yugyug's tip of doing some static apnea with my mask off before diving, I noticed that it did have a dramatic change on my intial heartrate.

I also stumbled upon a little different kick technique. I'm using scuba type fins right now until my Gara 3000's (which are on back order ) arrive. Instead I make more gradual kicks, because I noticed my fins were bending past 30 degrees, so I make longer and slower kicks, and glide a bit before beginning my next kick.

I also recall coming across an older threadyesterday where someone mentioned that if contractions come in, you can stop/delay them by very gently blowing against your mask with your nose, but only enough to relax the throat but not really lose any air. I tried it, and realised that the intense concentration it took to 'feather' the strength of that blow so I didn't release air out my mask really distracted me from other unpleasant feelings, and aided me along the rest of the dive.

The pool is only 10 meters by 25, so my biggest block right now seems to be turning around when I reach a wall. If I can find it in me to do that, I may step those numbers up again by a dramatic margine.

When not swimming for distance, but time, I now move around a bit.. sometimes closer to the surface to remind myself that 'its okay', and go back down. This way, I managed to stay under water for close to two minutes with relative ease.


I'm not sure if these are all very basic realisations and techniques to everyone, but I'm hoping anyone else reading this who is being held back by the urge to breath rather than their physiological pass-out limiot can try these things out, they really made a dramatic difference, so thank's alot.

I won't become a champion anytime soon, but I hope to refine these techniques and get some longer times and longer distances before I leave, so of course I can show off a decent catch on my first spearfishing trip!


As for the second breath thing, I'm referring to the fact that at certain (seemingly stepped) depths, the higher concentration of O2 seems to reduce your need to breath (which I still dont understand, because C02 must double in concentration too.. and that's what gived you the urge, so you should have a stronger urge to breath.. shoudlnt you? Anyway I dont understand that quite yet.)

But yes, I do feel my lungs start to shrink with depth and I don't like that, especially when my contractions (at depths at least 10 feet under) feel.. different.. like theyre pulling in my throat, with a surprising negative pressure. Much more unpleasant than just regular dry contractions.


By the way.. will freediving in an ocean be much different than a pool because of differences in bouyancy (you float more on salt water). I don't wear a wetsuit, so I don't know if I need a weight belt or not.


-Matt

[sgnips]

with no wetsuit i never wear any weight, but you should give it a try and find what's best, compared to the depths you're gonna work on of course
i would not exceed 1kg, anyway, but that's what would work for me (177cm, 74kg)

enjoy!

where exactly in the caribbean? i have a friend in caracas

[superhornet59]

I'm 191cm, about 75kg, and I think that might make me a bit buoyant. I have an old weight belt with 1kg weights in my garage, so I'll bring that along. The trip is to the Puerto Playa area in the Dominican Republic.