Sea Angling for Spearos

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by octpora

Maybe i missed it earlier in the thread, but does anyone over there ever use the soft plastics geared toward the american bass fishing market? (sluggos or bass asassins) If you rig them with an ounce of lead shot about .6 meters up the line and a worm hook they are hard to get snagged and the action is a killer. I have always done best with that setup going after flounder and redfish. Cheap too!

We use plenty of plastics this side of the pond... jelly worms, grubs, shads etc.
Most common would probably be the shad, either internally weighted or to be attached to a leadhead. We cast the smaller weighted ones around 25 gram for pollack, bass etc and rig the big ones to leadheads around 350 gram to a kilo to jig for big codfish or troll for halibut. they are pretty popular with pike fishermen nowadays too.
I've got loads of jellies in my bag meself but I prefer spoons or bait in most situations.

[octpora]

The way i like to rig it, with the lead further up the line, longer plastics, or jellies, have a completely different, almost freaky action. The lead shot causes some commotion in the bottom if it gets to touch, but then the sluggo is out there waving at mr fishy. Mr fishy attacks. The effect is closer to bait than a leaded hook or jighead. I also like it because it gives more good lip hookups than swallows, like bait gives if you set the hook too late.




>========------------------------------ooo

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by Magpie

Sorry mate but a 5ft rod would not be sufficient!

We use longer rods over here because the fishing is different. The short baitcaster rods in the US are used for flipping lures into weed beds after large mouth bass and the like, there is very little fishing like that in the UK, the closest being pike and perch spinning, for which many use similar tackle.

The match rods you have seen on the canals are that long for many reasons, line control, fish control, casting distance and control and many others. I'd love to see you trying to cast a 2bb waggler with a 5ft baitcasting rod...The tackle used is that which is best suited to the fishing being done.

Yes, you can catch fish on one of those short bright pink tourist specials, but you'll catch more and do so more efficiently and comfortably with the proper kit. (Example, you discovered your Leeda reel was too big for comfortable spinning eh)

PS. Bet I could tell the difference with one waggle

I'm sure you're right. I can hook the far side with my smallest, lightest lures & spinners using a 6.5ft spinning rod (the trick is not to!). The float gear is lighter though.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by octpora

[url=http://www.stcroixrods.com]...For around 80 usd you can take back a sweet spinner rod. Shoot, thats about what we pay to have a good euro gun shipped to us if we know someone so kind. One other brand comes to mind- tica-INDEX but it looks like only those in oz and usa have dealers. Good product and just a tad more costly than shakespeare.

Maybe i missed it earlier in the thread, but does anyone over there ever use the soft plastics geared toward the american bass fishing market? (sluggos or bass asassins) If you rig them with an ounce of lead shot about .6 meters up the line and a worm hook they are hard to get snagged and the action is a killer. I have always done best with that setup going after flounder and redfish. Cheap too!

$80 sounds a lot to me, until I do the conversion - at current exchange rates that's about £40 (the low end of mid-range). For that money I have seen new Daiwa Whisker carbon 10/11 ft. spinning rods for sale on eBay.co.uk - they got snapped up pretty fast.

Interesting about the bass assassins - I've only seen them on eBay. I have had good luck trolling blue & white Eddystone eels (2 bass + 1 pollock), although I recently read white is good for bass, red for pollock, hi-viz orange for cod & black at dusk for pollock & bass. I have a couple of packets of different holographically-coloured weighted shads -- I reckon they should work but I've only tried one once. It did occur to me that they might worth trying for flatties after reading an article on "trolling marks" that atomichaggis posted a link to. Being heavy & relatively low snag (single hook, point up) it should be possible to drag them along a sandy sea-bed without too much risk of snagging (I mainly use poppers & sub-surface floating lures to reduce the risk of snags when bassing). I was toying with the idea of setting up one at the end a trolling mark (per the article) for the kayak -- but usually I kayak around rocks looking for bass - so would need to make a conscious effort to stop doing that!

So what do you look for in a good rod? How can you tell that you are getting something better than the cheaper ones? Many inexpensive carbon rods available now are so much better than the glass fibre rods we used to use - they include standard features that used to be the hallmark of higher end rods (screw-up Fuji reel seats, full cork handles, ceramic lined 1/2/3 legged Fuji rings, carbon blank). I'm wondering if the difference is shrinking/getting more subtle. For most equipment there is a law of diminishing returns -- after a certain point small improvements start to cost much more (for racing bikes it is interesting to cost out how much it costs to save weight in different ways -- $20-$200 per 50g is not uncommon). For you guys that live near the sea, it probably makes sense to get the best, you get so much use out of them -- but I fish with a rod perhaps 10 times a year & then only for an hour or so each time (and that split between spinning &, now, bait fishing).

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by atomichaggis

Mr.X,
Let me preach...
The short rods in the US are designed for casting stickbaits, spoons, weighted shads and other medium/heavy lures. They are used in the UK but they are not the sort of thing to float a maggot or spin with (too short and usually too stiff). They are perfect for pike and all saltwater predators tho (worthwhile fishing).
I use baitcasters between 5.5 and 7 ft paired with a daiwa viento for all my lure fishing here, I even do my light baitfishing with one too... The yanks are on to something.
I fish spoons as small as 10 gram for seatrout and lead stickbaits to 60 gram for cod and pollack effectively on one of my rods and with a 20-30 gram spoon, nothing casts further nor more accurately (consistently shames 11ft spinning rod).
Baitcasters are on a par with flyrods for pure enjoyment.

Interesting. I have long wondered if part of the reason the Americans have so many rods in the 5.5ft-7ft range might be something to do with the rhythm that tends to produce when reeling in -- perhaps it produces a particularly realistic lure movement?

Yes, I haven't noticed any gain in casting distance between the 6.5 foot Shimano & the 10ft Shakespeare. With a 20-28g lure, they seem to cast about the same distance as far as I can tell. I guess the 10 fter would more comfortably handle a 40g/50g/60g lure -- its rate 10-60g rather than 10-30g -- which probably would cast farther. A longer rod does help you reach over washed up weed & rocks -- which is a common problem here. It might also help landing bigger fish (I hope to find out one day ) or a string of mackeral.

The small rods are fun though & so easy to carry around. I wonder if a travel rod or telescopic might also prove useful. I've found in the past that I am far more inclined to carry small/light gear, consequently it gets used a lot more use (camera, phone, spearing float, etc.).

[octpora]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

$80 sounds a lot to me, until I do the conversion - at current exchange rates that's about £40 (the low end of mid-range). For that money I have seen new Daiwa Whisker carbon 10/11 ft. spinning rods for sale on eBay.co.uk - they got snapped up pretty fast.

That would be for a tica surfcaster in the 9 foot range with an action that lets you cast from 3/4 oz. to 4 oz. of rig.

Regarding casting distance, yes a longer rod will cast further than a given shorter rod. Flex action plays into this as well, but that varies with casting style. When the spanish mackies are in striking distance from the surf, The weapon of choice is a 9 or 10 footer, stiff or medium stiff 3oz. capacity and a fast spinning reel.

For playing a big fish a longer rod not only gives you more reach over near shore obstacles, But is in effect a longer spring. It can absorb more shock and save your line. Also, for casting the longer rod allows you to throw more. My rod for heavier chunk bait casting is a 12 foot tica. I've thrown 14 oz with it [10oz lead and a big chunk of bait]

Yes, past a certain point, the price of a rod can be stupid. But something i try to keep in mind is that too cheap a rod represents waste. Rods require someone to manufacture all sorts of hideous crap to build the rod. Then, if it breaks due to poor craftsmanship, rushed construction methods, or inferior hideous crap, Where can you recycle an epoxy coated graphite splinter?

Anybody saltwater flyfish?

[Magpie]

What like this one? (That was a Daiwa Amorphous Whisker Tournament, which hasn't been made for a while but good secondhand ones still go for 300quid easily).

I've now got a very expensive handle for my pond weed scooper!

[foxfish]

Interesting fact = Magpie has officially cast an apple 145m! (he has also cast a 5/1/4oz lead 231m ) Not sure if it was with that rod though.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by octpora

The way i like to rig it, with the lead further up the line, longer plastics, or jellies, have a completely different, almost freaky action. The lead shot causes some commotion in the bottom if it gets to touch, but then the sluggo is out there waving at mr fishy. Mr fishy attacks. The effect is closer to bait than a leaded hook or jighead. I also like it because it gives more good lip hookups than swallows, like bait gives if you set the hook too late.




>========------------------------------ooo

You guys are spoiled for fish out there too tho... seems over here we tend to go hardcore on a small number of species. Bass is just one fish here lol.

I like to keep my drop very short to non existant when i lure fish due to using the shortish baitcaster, so it's mostly just a spoon, wobbler or stickbait straight on my line but what you describe is a bit like powerballing a rubber eel that is quite popular in the UK... I think Mr.X has been trying that out from his kayak.
The closest to that I do is float a fly/worm/mackie strip from a trout bomber for seatrout but its better on a long rod.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

So what do you look for in a good rod? How can you tell that you are getting something better than the cheaper ones? Many inexpensive carbon rods available now are so much better than the glass fibre rods we used to use - they include standard features that used to be the hallmark of higher end rods (screw-up Fuji reel seats, full cork handles, ceramic lined 1/2/3 legged Fuji rings, carbon blank). I'm wondering if the difference is shrinking/getting more subtle. For most equipment there is a law of diminishing returns -- after a certain point small improvements start to cost much more (for racing bikes it is interesting to cost out how much it costs to save weight in different ways -- $20-$200 per 50g is not uncommon). For you guys that live near the sea, it probably makes sense to get the best, you get so much use out of them -- but I fish with a rod perhaps 10 times a year & then only for an hour or so each time (and that split between spinning &, now, bait fishing).

The only thing that is important in a rod is blank action.
The materials used will affect the action in a specific way both in casting and playing a fish. Carbon is light and snappy but brittle and fibreglass is heavy, soggy but can bend double on a good rod.
The way the materials are put together also affect the action of the rod. They can give it a J curve or a C curve when casting... J being suited to power casting with intuitive timing and C being more forgiving for beginners and smoother for casting floats etc.
Some examples... A good boat rod in my opinion is around 6-7 foot with a carbon butt (keeps the weight down), slightly soggy blended mid section and a glass tip(must bend on a short rod). Some prefer a 5-6 ft standup 100% fibreglass rod that will bend double and others a long springy carbon one for uptiding(the mid section soaks up the hits). The trick is finding a rod that suits your technique/style and physique. I'd blow over in a wind with a 14ft tourny caster so it doesn't matter if Danny Moeskops cast a sheep to the moon with it... My surf rod is a fluffy puppy
No rod is all things to all men, you need different rods for surfcasting, floatfishing, boatfishing etc.

All the guides and fittings are just icing and won't make a bad stick good.
They do however make a good stick prettier
I dunno all the sticks personally but you can't go wrong with the top makes like Zziplex and Century etc.
The top manufacturers know a lot more about composites and invest more in development and testing than the lower end ones so on the whole you usually end up getting what you pay for... That said, there are lots of diamonds among the coal and if You know what you want and ask the right people you are bound to find something that suits your fishing and your budget. Also worth noting, an ill suited rod that costs a fortune is a huge mistake.

[foxfish]

Mr x you might be interested to research eyeless rods?
I use the Daiwa Interline models now but also liked the Silstar range, I find this type of rod superb for use in my small boat. There is a trade off from the beautiful action & feel you get in that they are a bugger to thread the line through in the first place.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

Interesting. I have long wondered if part of the reason the Americans have so many rods in the 5.5ft-7ft range might be something to do with the rhythm that tends to produce when reeling in -- perhaps it produces a particularly realistic lure movement?

Yes, I haven't noticed any gain in casting distance between the 6.5 foot Shimano & the 10ft Shakespeare. With a 20-28g lure, they seem to cast about the same distance as far as I can tell. I guess the 10 fter would more comfortably handle a 40g/50g/60g lure -- its rate 10-60g rather than 10-30g -- which probably would cast farther. A longer rod does help you reach over washed up weed & rocks -- which is a common problem here. It might also help landing bigger fish (I hope to find out one day ) or a string of mackeral.

The small rods are fun though & so easy to carry around. I wonder if a travel rod or telescopic might also prove useful. I've found in the past that I am far more inclined to carry small/light gear, consequently it gets used a lot more use (camera, phone, spearing float, etc.).

The lures do their own things and the rods all have differing actions anyway, they don't do anything especially different to a long rod with a similar tip when reeling a lure in... perhaps a slightly more direct feeling of contact with the lure.

I know others will probably disagree with this but... Well balanced Baitcasters cast further! My 7ft greys casts 25ish grams further than 11ft Abu spinner and My 6ish ft shimano baitcaster casts 50 gram further than the Abu spinner (and 13ft Century with the same effort)... FACT!

The greys casts further than the Abu spinner because it has a faster J curve and you just can't crank the Abu up enough to cast as snappy, it also helps that the baitcasting reel is a multiplier.
The shimano is all carbon and seriously snappy and just makes the Abu look poor even when it's optimally cranked up. the century could probably hit the other side of the fjord if provoked but it takes a bit of acrobatics, the shimano does it effortlessly.

The ratings on rods are a bit hit n' miss... shimanos tend to be underrated, some by a considerable way. Grey's tend to be overrated... well mine does at least and i've heard mention of another.
Long rods have some advantages when steering fish around obstacles but they can be a pain when landing a big fish on your own... not too healthy for the tip to be held high when landing a big cod. similarly I've had a haddock stuck on the side of the steep rock I was fishing for about ten minutes with a short rod

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by octpora

That would be for a tica surfcaster in the 9 foot range with an action that lets you cast from 3/4 oz. to 4 oz. of rig.

Regarding casting distance, yes a longer rod will cast further than a given shorter rod. Flex action plays into this as well, but that varies with casting style. When the spanish mackies are in striking distance from the surf, The weapon of choice is a 9 or 10 footer, stiff or medium stiff 3oz. capacity and a fast spinning reel.

For playing a big fish a longer rod not only gives you more reach over near shore obstacles, But is in effect a longer spring. It can absorb more shock and save your line. Also, for casting the longer rod allows you to throw more. My rod for heavier chunk bait casting is a 12 foot tica. I've thrown 14 oz with it [10oz lead and a big chunk of bait]

Yes, past a certain point, the price of a rod can be stupid. But something i try to keep in mind is that too cheap a rod represents waste. Rods require someone to manufacture all sorts of hideous crap to build the rod. Then, if it breaks due to poor craftsmanship, rushed construction methods, or inferior hideous crap, Where can you recycle an epoxy coated graphite splinter?

Anybody saltwater flyfish?

Action is more imortant... My 3 short rods cast further than 3 of the 4 longer rods within their range. I reckon it would take a purchase of twice the price to outperform them.

Long rods are for people who dunno what their drag is for :P

I used the carbon tip section from my snapped shimano as a boom... the rest of it will make a good beating stick or something

I flyfish in saltwater 99.99% of the time.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Magpie

What like this one? (That was a Daiwa Amorphous Whisker Tournament, which hasn't been made for a while but good secondhand ones still go for 300quid easily).

I've now got a very expensive handle for my pond weed scooper!

Ouch!... and you posed for a picture with it lol... I'd have been crying.