Sea Angling for Spearos

[Magpie]

Pleasure mate, works a treat eh, you get around you!

Those jardine weights are very old school, I'm surprised you found any. You run the risk of damaging light mono with them. They don't have any real benefits over drilled ball or barrel weights provided you use a decent swivel.

Never heard of this powerball you're talking about, got a link?

Beautiful Cod Haggy.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

I'm surprised that a 1000 is practical for the sea (fine for the canal, river or small lake) - they look very neat. I'm currently using 30lb Whiplash Pro braid, which is very fine at 0.1mm (for comparison 10-12lb mono is usually more than 3x thicker), yet it have on a couple of occasions come close to emptying the spool of my 2500 reel when the wind is behind me (I mostly use lures 18g-32g). I take it 2500 reels don't have 2.5 times the capacity of a 1000?


I also tried out a powerball equipped with an Eddystone eel (my fav. lure) on a 6ft leader -- the eel is hooked into the ball for casting. It was disasterous! I think a shorter trace, perhaps with some of that memory-less mono might work better.

My 2500 stella holds 290 metres of 0.18mm... I cant cast 20 gram lures that far... doubt Magpie can either.
The 1000 size model holds 145 metres of 0.18mm... guess how far I can't cast a 10 gram lure
So respectively the capacity of the reels in the classes are more than adequate both under casting and letting a fish take a run off the drag.
If your spool has a lower capacity then consider using lighter line... I use 12lb breaking strain dyneema on my low profile with a 0.30mm mono leader for lure fishing up to 60 gram and light baitfishing catching fish to 7kgs with no problems whatsoever.

The powerball needs a smoooooooth long cast, a float rod or similar is ideal for that... possibly a carp stick? failing that a good, smooth rotation from the hips.
There is an alternative tho. We use a casting float here called a trout bomber (see attached pic) which come in the same densities as flyline I.E. float, Intermediate, Sink III etc. They are pretty aerodynamic and come in various weights and they cast like bullets... still needs a bit of smoooooothness tho but it has the powerball licked. Seems Ideal for rubber eels as we use it for fishing a fly on a lure rod for trout, pollack, coalies and salmon.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by Magpie

...Those jardine weights are very old school, I'm surprised you found any. You run the risk of damaging light mono with them. They don't have any real benefits over drilled ball or barrel weights provided you use a decent swivel.

Never heard of this powerball you're talking about, got a link?...

What you say about Jardines is exactly true. Interesting to hear that they are now considered "Old School". An older colleague (Kenyan/Cornishman) said he used them to cast spinners when sea fishing. I looked around a lot & several stores told me they hadn't seen them for a while &/or weren't sure if you could still get them. I found some very small ones last year, the last 2 among some old weights in the Wareham angling store -- but lost (probably tidied away somewhere in the house or thrown out as rubbish ) the small brown paper bag with them & some jazzy new Eddystone eels in that I had just bought. However, I notice the Swanage angling store had a new stock recently, 18g & 32g -- which seem like a good size.

Not sure about damaging line, but I reckon they probably could; I was a little wary of putting them on my fine braid but it seemed ok in the end. The springy ends are tight coils on some & loose coils on others. Loose is easier to thread & probably less damaging but they might not hold on so well(?). Your right, a bored bullet lead up-line would probably be simplest & best. The thing is, I keep my rod set up with braid, a 1m rubbing lead of 15lb mono with a small non-swivel clip -- I'd rather not have to cut that off everytime I try a lighter lure/spinner & running the knots through the rings works but isn't ideal. The Jardine leads seems designed for dealing with just that issue. I will give them a few more tries (I have a couple left in my box, might as well) -- perhaps with small spinners (e.g. a fly fisherman gave me a really nice old Mepps-style spinner with porcellin body for mackeral).

Re. powerballing, I came across it while searching for info. on "Jif Lemon technique" - I kid you not. Although it might sound a bit obscure & wacky, the thing is I've been impressed by how well rubber eels work from the kayak and have been looking for a good way to use them from shore. Here are a few links:

WORLD SEA FISHING | LURE & FLY | Powerball Bassing
Diy fishing float

Re-reading that article, I notice the author rates it for use with mackeral feathers and frozen sandeels too. BTW I often find it difficult to find suitable material, so I'm always looking for useful odds & ends. I used old guitar strings for the wire through the ball - the common "ball end" ones have a handy brass ring at one end.

Apparently Mike Ladle has used powerballs as floats in the past too (it looks like he uses half corks now -- simpler & cheaper?). I think the thing that got me thinking about this originally was an article Mike did on a friend that caught a huge Tarpon using, quite light spinning gear -- but he used a weighted float (I think it said 40g on it) with a light-stick stuck in it (perhaps it was one of the Ragot floats mentioned in the above article, being only available in the Channel Islands) with a leader to a hook & bait - an extremely simple rig.

BTW I tried the 6.5ft spinning rod briefly on our recent fishing trip -- it does feel rather inadequate/unsatisfying after using the 10 footer (although is still quite functional).

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by atomichaggis

My 2500 stella holds 290 metres of 0.18mm... I cant cast 20 gram lures that far... doubt Magpie can either.
The 1000 size model holds 145 metres of 0.18mm... guess how far I can't cast a 10 gram lure
So respectively the capacity of the reels in the classes are more than adequate both under casting and letting a fish take a run off the drag.
If your spool has a lower capacity then consider using lighter line... I use 12lb breaking strain dyneema on my low profile with a 0.30mm mono leader for lure fishing up to 60 gram and light baitfishing catching fish to 7kgs with no problems whatsoever.

The powerball needs a smoooooooth long cast, a float rod or similar is ideal for that... possibly a carp stick? failing that a good, smooth rotation from the hips.
There is an alternative tho. We use a casting float here called a trout bomber (see attached pic) which come in the same densities as flyline I.E. float, Intermediate, Sink III etc. They are pretty aerodynamic and come in various weights and they cast like bullets... still needs a bit of smoooooothness tho but it has the powerball licked. Seems Ideal for rubber eels as we use it for fishing a fly on a lure rod for trout, pollack, coalies and salmon.

I don't know if you've actually measured the capacity of your Stella (nice reel BTW - you obviously consider 2500 a useful size to have invested in such a good reel, so that it is reassuring) but I found the capacities written on the side of my reel extremely misleading in practice. It is supposed to take, for example 240m of .20mm line -- well, I'm using 0.10mm line so it should easily swallow up a 300m spool of braid but it doesn't even come close. It takes less that 150m of .10mm line. Ok I put a short length of mono backing line line on (v. short now) and stop loading 2mm from the lip (normal practice for braid although not mono I suppose). I find, if I have to strip off a few metres due to a snag/knot/caught lure -- I start getting close to the backing line when casting with the wind behind me.

Interesting, smooth is definitely the way to cast; I tried using brute strength to cast further recently but it simply doesn't work. Often it will just flip the bail arm over prematurely - leading to very short cast & potentially a snap off (this could be how I lost a lure last Summer). That float sounds like a definite step forward (although, at 10p each in Woolies, powerballs are cheap & readily available). Flying fishing with lure gear & float! Excellent. Must give that a try -- perhaps with a mini Delta eel as the "fly" for mullet. I do have an old 13ft float rod -- although at the spot I have in mind, the mullet come in very close to shore ... could probably dangle bait off the end of that rod.

[atomichaggis]

The capacities are suspect... I guess they just measure the volume of the space on the spool and don't really consider the space between the wraps of line. I have an ample mono backing and over 160 metres of 0.17mm multi then a further few turns of mono as a leader and that is sufficient for all but big angry salmon... and I ain't caught a big angry salmon yet so no probs.
The stella was a good shop... it's the first fixed spool that I don't dislike... they completely blunted my anger this time. I'd definately choose shimano when I invest in a 1000... Yup 1000
A buddy actually caught a big fat cod on a beastmaster 165UL 1-7 gram rod and a 750 yesterday! That would make your nerves jangle.

re powerball: lay the snood out straight on the deck behind the tip, big smooth rotation and don't let the rod unload too quick... when the eel doesn't swing right around the ball several times you've cracked it.

[Mr. X]

Thanks for all the advice. I love the little Shimano reels -- but 1000! I guess it would more than do for the canal. What it is the attraction of using such a small reel -- is it that being superlight it means you can cast all day? I know that me and the f-i-l have come home surprisingly tired after what is really half a day of lure fishing along a beach - perhaps it's the sea air.

It could also be the braid line that is overly optimistic about diameter -- although whiplash does seem very fine. I might try the the new clear Fireline 20lb line next -- but have been pretty pleased with the 30lb Whiplash.

By the way, being somewhat addicted to lures, I have been mezmerized by the offerings from this ebay store, Zip Lures: eBay UK Shop - BASS: LURES, TROLLING, RAPALA
I got interested in big games lures after coming across an amazing stand at the CLA Gamefair at Broadlands, Hants a year or 2 ago. They had big game boat seats, squid lures with metal heads as big as 2 fists & a couple of feet long, a brass reel as big as two wheelbarrow reels (I think the guy said that was fake but the lures were real).



I reckon the wires on the top of this one are to make it weed resistant; the ad doesn't mention it but there is an article on "Weedless" lures in ... the Art of Fishing (you'll get tired of me refer to that real soon):
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/...ds/B3B4012.jpg

[Mr. X]

Is there a multiplier (or fixed spool reel) that would be an excellent around sea reel -- or is it all about specialist equipment: horses for courses. I'm thinking: something that would be good for light to medium beachcasting/beach fishing but would also work well from a boat. If you could have only one affordable sea fishing reel- which would it be?

[I'm going to go back & re-read some of the earlier posts in the thread.]

[foxfish]

Sorry cant imagine that! I buy at least 4 or 5 a year.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

Thanks for all the advice. I love the little Shimano reels -- but 1000! I guess it would more than do for the canal. What it is the attraction of using such a small reel -- is it that being superlight it means you can cast all day? I know that me and the f-i-l have come home surprisingly tired after what is really half a day of lure fishing along a beach - perhaps it's the sea air.

It could also be the braid line that is overly optimistic about diameter -- although whiplash does seem very fine. I might try the the new clear Fireline 20lb line next -- but have been pretty pleased with the 30lb Whiplash.

It's just a matter of balance and enjoyment. small lures are better for the seatrout and cast better from light rods which balance with smaller reels. You do save a fair bit of effort with the right rod than compensating for the wrong rod.
It's also a better challenge to land a good fish on the light gear just like flyfishing... I use 6-8lb tippets in the sea.
i doubt there is anything in a canal in the UK that can't be tamed with an ultra light rod and a 750 size reel.

Check out the UK light line conger record on youtube.

Another thing with dyneema braids is whether they have a perfectly round shape... I find the super strength ones are less round and possibly don't sit so neat on the spool or fill the gaps so well.
I've got fireline on the stella, dunno if it would make any difference with whiplash or another dyneema. BTW the crystal fireline isn't really clear... I prefers the grey.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

Is there a multiplier (or fixed spool reel) that would be an excellent around sea reel -- or is it all about specialist equipment: horses for courses. I'm thinking: something that would be good for light to medium beachcasting/beach fishing but would also work well from a boat. If you could have only one affordable sea fishing reel- which would it be?

[I'm going to go back & re-read some of the earlier posts in the thread.]

I recommend purpose made equipment for specific tasks.
Smaller, higher geared, open cage, well braked for casting like Abu mags.
Bigger, open cage, low geared, good quality lever drag for deep water boat fishing like shimano Tiagra or Penn international.
for shallower boat fishing to 100m then something in between with medium gearing either star or lever drag but always quality and maybe a levelwind for fishing eels n shads where lots of winding n dropping is required but again has to be heavy duty levelwind... Charter special type reel etc.

that said... if I had to have one reel for beach and boat... I would check out the larger abu ambassadeurs and heavy ground mags by Daiwa and penn.
It's always going to be a trade off, a proper boat reel will be too big too get hold of when casting and will be under braked and a proper casting reel will be too small and too highly geared for heavy boatwork.
I think a 7000 size might pass for both... but don't quote me on that.

[atomichaggis]

Mr.X,

I have a speed jig made by williamsson... 'abyss' I think it's called... real work of art.
like the saying goes tho...
"lures catch more fishermen than fish".

[atomichaggis]

I've just had a 'eureka' moment... I think.

Next time you powerball use a small wire baitclip on the mainline and have the eel 'clipped up'. Unlike jabbing the point into the powerball, this would leave the powerball at the end and no line trailing when you cast so you can cast more powerfully.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by atomichaggis

I've just had a 'eureka' moment... I think.

Next time you powerball use a small wire baitclip on the mainline and have the eel 'clipped up'. Unlike jabbing the point into the powerball, this would leave the powerball at the end and no line trailing when you cast so you can cast more powerfully.

Oh I see ... have the bait clip right up the mainline. I've got a couple of the plastic quick-release bait hook, they were still attached to weight that I've recovered. I think I should try a shorter leader to start off with, 6ft was a little optimistic to start with.

[Magpie]

I'm struggling to see the point of such a short leader Mr X?

In my world leaders are primarily for absorbing the shock of the cast, so need to go a good number of turns round the spool to be of any use.

They are also used to provide a bit of a stretch buffer against the non-stretch braid, in which case 6ft is going to be fairly useless too because its not long enough to stretch much. Then there is the rubbing aspect, but you're using lighter mono than your braid so I can't see why you're bothering at all?

I don't when plugging, find its totally unnecessary, I like the strength of using 20 or 30lbs braid and thats negated if using a 15lbs or lighter mono leader so fish the braid straight through.

You shouldn't need a bait clip at all. Try stopping the line coming off the spool just before the lot hits the water, that will straighten the line out and flip the lure ahead of your weight/ball as it hits the water, so no tangles.

Multiplier for beach fishing and light boat at reasonable cost? I'd say Penn 525GS. 7000's are fine but very slow retrieve.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by Magpie

I'm struggling to see the point of such a short leader Mr X?

In my world leaders are primarily for absorbing the shock of the cast, so need to go a good number of turns round the spool to be of any use.

They are also used to provide a bit of a stretch buffer against the non-stretch braid, in which case 6ft is going to be fairly useless too because its not long enough to stretch much. Then there is the rubbing aspect, but you're using lighter mono than your braid so I can't see why you're bothering at all?

I don't when plugging, find its totally unnecessary, I like the strength of using 20 or 30lbs braid and thats negated if using a 15lbs or lighter mono leader so fish the braid straight through.

You shouldn't need a bait clip at all. Try stopping the line coming off the spool just before the lot hits the water, that will straighten the line out and flip the lure ahead of your weight/ball as it hits the water, so no tangles.

Multiplier for beach fishing and light boat at reasonable cost? I'd say Penn 525GS. 7000's are fine but very slow retrieve.

Oops, I probably used the wrong terminology. I'm not talking about a shock leader, I'm taking about the hook length (tippet/trace?). I originally wondered why anybody would add mono to the end of their braid -- I'm pretty sure Foxfish suggested it early in this thread & I noticed Mike Ladle does too -- it didn't make sense to me either. So I originally tied braid directly to the lure (via a clip) but I found several problems with it:

1. if the lure gets caught, then you can loose a lot of expensive braid. This is a bigger problem with a small reel, because what is left on the spool might not be enough to continue.
2. The trebles will sometimes get caught in the braid - a pain to deal with & damaging to the thin braid.
3. The thin braid was easily damaged on rock (esp. before I switched to 30lb).
4. Ultra-thin 30lb braid is pretty hard to break if it catches. If you cut it, you loose a lot of expensive braid.

So, for lures, I normally use some fancy 0.30mm/15lb mono - which is (supposedly) 3x thicker and hopefully more resistant to abrasion & hooks than the braid. If the lures gets stuck or the line gets worn, hopefully it is the mono that will break first. Mike Ladle uses a similar set up as a "rubbing trace" (he's recently written of moving to a 30lb mono rubbing trace for larger tropical fish); Henry Gilbey also uses a 30lb mono trace at the end of his braid for Bass. I find that reassuring but I suppose I needed to find out for myself. My reason for using 30lb whiplash is not because I need 30lb BS but because the lower BS version had very poor abrasion resistance - while the 30lb version is still only a fraction of the diameter of most other braids (and I have limited spool capacity with the 2500 reel). It has worked very well for me so far. I do sometimes wonder if 15lb mono is too heavy or too light - so I figure there is a good chance is just about right. Using a very fine line (like Whiplash) is supposed to improve casting by reducing wind-resistance/drag -- but you'd know all about that.

I'm thinking I don't need a shock leader currently. Here my reasoning:
a. they are normally recommended when casting more than 2oz (my rod is only rated to 60g - 2oz).
b. the rule of thumb I heard is 10lb for each oz of weight cast. My rod is rated for 2oz and I'm using 30lb line -- so I already have 10lb spare (although obviously practically no shock absorption in Dyneema -- so perhaps it doesn't count?).
c. I usually cast 18-32g, only rarely 40g or more (although I suspect I will try heavier lures this year).

Re. stopping the line - good idea. I often do that but not always. Can't recall if I did that with the powerball - quite possibly not. I think part of the problem was that the line to the eel had been coiled in a plastic bag for some time & came out all kinked up . I believe the hook came out of the ball ok, the trouble was with the mono which was all tangled when it came in. I didn't have the patience at the time to untangle it or work on it, I immediately switched back to a regular lure & continued fishing.

Sounds like I've got several things to try with the powerball:
* cast smoothly
* consider using a bait hook on main-line, so ball is at end of line
* stop the line at the ball hit the water (to avoid tangle at the reel & ensure the hook breaks free)
* try a shorter hook trace - maybe 1m to start with
* deal with the line kinking (use low memory mono or make the trace up on the beach rather than preparing it & storing)

Something I'm noticing with sea fishing that I hadn't expected is that you often come across problems & then look for different ways to solve it. I'm beginning to see where some of these weird & wonderful techniques and rigs have evolved. I don't recall coarse fishing being like that -- perhaps because we mainly fish one type of water and the techniques used were quite well established. One of the big mysteries to me when I started was was type of line to use -- I was amazed by the range of answers I got, just walking along Chesil one evening; there are obviously many ways to skin this cat.