Sea Angling for Spearos

[felipe felop]

mr.x or should i say mr.bond,steppingstones looks like a pretty wizzo place for recuperation hold the vodka/martini miss moneypenny,i'm orff hunting for the minxs,your dead right about the prices though makes your eyes water & your bank manager smile ugg!!

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

BTW my brother mentioned today that some of his colleagues caught 100 cod on a recent rod fishing trip off the Isle of Wight. Apparently some others caught 200 (boat angling with rods). I pointed out that cod are a species under threat but he thought they probably took them home. To be fair, he has told me on many earlier occasions that the same guys have gone and caught nothing at all. I think that puts the negligible impact of spear fishing into perspective. I'm happy with one fish, two fish is a good day, any thing else is beyond expectations. None is not uncommon.

Impressive... how some people can remain interested enough to catch so many cod.
Find the schoals of sprat or whatever they are eating and you can haul them up all day long but its dull as dishwater after a while.
What the hell did they do with it all??? 200 fish, i presume of proper taking size ca. 50cm++ and 3kg++ Thats hundreds of kilos of fillet!!! without handing it out to family and friends that wouldn't even keep in the freezer very well... nobody eats that much cod in a year!
Anyway I dunno these guys or what they done with it so I'm not gonna talk ethics but it seems a lot of fish for the recreational fisher, far from a sensible harvest without some other reason to catch so much.
ask more questions... I'm curious about this.

[Mr. X]

Re. cod. Not sure of the details as I got the info. second hand. Will try to find out more. I'm sure they would have returned any undersize fish (but included them in the count) as they were likely on a proper chartered fishing boat. Isn't there sometimes an issue with burst swim bladders though?

The new Shakespeare Tidewater Bass rod arrived last night. For some reason I find it hard to get excited about a rod without a cork handle! It looks very good though, although a couple of things struck me: it's pretty darn long - probably not ideal for the beginners that will be using it - & the broken down sections are 6 feet long, which will making packing challenging. Wondering if the 3-section MPV version, which is also a tad shorter might have been a better fit for my needs. BTW I managed to contact a guy at Shakespeare & he said he used a Salt MPS (the model up & 2 section) for all his rock & shore work -- although his response arrived after the order was placed.

The Tidewater rod has a nice grey carbon finish & the rings look v. similar to those fitted to my Royalty spin rod, albeit larger (they're lined and seem to work fine with mono & braid). The black rubber handles are a little better than I expect & the no-name reel fitting works nicely. Over all, the finish was good, better than I expect except that the spigot joint has about 2" or more of inner joint showing after assembly -- is that normal?! Do I need to force it in more?? I can do force but I tend to break things. I think the cheaper slide over joint on my Royalty looks better; spigot joints are/were optional and extra cost on the Royalty. BTW the Royalty has now become the Royalty Trion, although the price has gone up a little, the only difference I can spot is that it no longer uses a name-brand, Fuji, reel seat -- so less for more? Perhaps they are using a new blank.

The rod is quite stiff, I guess it has to be to handle 2-4oz. It feels heavier than expected yet the rod is light. After some experimentation I found this is because the rod is balanced when the top section is not fitted, once you add the top section it becomes very tip heavy - making the rod feel heavy. My old coarse rod had the old sliding rings - so I always set it up to be balanced, so these fancy new fixed reel fittings seem to give an inferior result to me - but perhaps rods are not supposed to feel balanced in the hand?

Question: I fitted the Leeda 60 surfcaster reel & added 40lb fluoro red shock leader to the existing line (can't recall what line it has loaded, probably clear 12-14lb mono) - to handle 2-4oz weights. It's a bit of a pain, being really thick & stiff, it won't stay under the spool's line clip. Not sure what, goes on beyond that. I reckon the brothers-in-law will do some mackeral feathering - should I attach the feathers directly to the shock leader or should I fit some mono in between? Seems like the latter would make life easier but the dangling end length longer and/or add more knots to go through the rings.

[BTW I used a trick out of sea angler magazine to attaching the shock leader, bulbing the ends with a lighter & tying the thinner mono around that.]

[Magpie]

To answer a few questions,

Yes, there is meant to be a gap at the spigot, it allows the spigot to wear over the rods life and still be functional.

Why would transport be a problem. I've had the nearly 10ft tips of my casting rods in a Ford Ka, no problems, so you've either got a Smart Car or will have no worries!

Are you assessing the balance with the reel attached? That will make it properly weighted, if not take the butt cap off a wedge a 2oz weight up there.

Tie the leader direct to the feathers, it would negate the point of the leader to tie anything in between. Also make sure the rig body of your feathers is the same or heavier breaking strain as your leader. If it won't stay under the line clip just put a rubber band round the spool.

The blob knot is not the most trust worthy, I really wouldn't suggest using it for fishing. Tie a half hitch in the leader round the mono (pulling very tight with pliers), pull 10 inches of mono though the knot then tie a unit knot in the mono around the leader and pull tight.

[atomichaggis]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

Re. cod. Not sure of the details as I got the info. second hand. Will try to find out more. I'm sure they would have returned any undersize fish (but included them in the count) as they were likely on a proper chartered fishing boat. Isn't there sometimes an issue with burst swim bladders though?

Usually deepwater fish like Ling, tusk and redfish come up inflated or wrasse if you catch them at 30m+ but I've never seen a cod with burst swim bladder. I doubt they would have been fishing deep enough... I've hauled them up from 80m full tilt and they have been fine. Best cod fishing has been 40-60m from a boat for me... doubt its different down there.

Re the rod:

All my need a mortgage rods have gaps on the spigots too, don't worry bout that.
No name reel seats on some of my rods are better than the fuji reel seat on my shimano speedmaster... damn thing broke after about 2 month and I had to get a replacement section.
I get surf rods in small cars, just lay them over the parcel shelf and between the front seats... or strap to a rack up top. You should have no probs with your spinning rod.
I would expect the rod to balance out with the top section and the reel on... of course if you dangle a 2 oz weight as well it would feel a bit top heavy again. have you set it all up completely and had a few swings with it yet?
I'm with Magpie on the knot... bubbles weaken blobs, half hitch is much more reliable.

[foxfish]

Interesting point about spigot joints - I can see the logic of the joint having a gap to allow for wear but I have never used a rod long enough to see the joint close up!
In the good old days of fiberglass 484s they had a s/s screw down spigot!!

[Mr. X]

Brilliant responses. Thankyou. Getting expert advice like this is - incredible.

Relieved to hear about the spigot. re. transport, you're probably right. I currently fold down a seat in either car and the rodbag touches the front seat and back door, it should be possible to arrange something. No, you wouldn't mistake the larger car for a Smart car (or, as the one I passed today said on the back, "Smart @rse"). I once saw Mike Ladle packed his 11ft rod into his tiny car, without breaking it down. Afterwards it struck me as impossible -- still haven't figured that one out. How on earth do you get 10ft sections into a Ka??? The problem is, I might have a full car this Summer as some of the in-laws will join us. Also, we normally pack the car pretty full with bedding, clothes, spearing gear, kayak gear, fishing tackle, lobster pots, food, etc. AND put the double kayak and 2 sets on paddles on the top. I'm thinking the roof rack might be the way to go. Gulp!

Re. the blob, interesting. I superglued it too but I take your point about it weakening the line. Now you mention it, I have seen the knot Magpie described, like a thumb knot in the thick line & the main knot in the thin line. Had forgotten about that. Was thinking the blob (as shown regularly in Sea Angler) would be the lowest profile join and so less likely to catch in the rings - perhaps the larger weights make that a non-issue.

Yes, I already use a rubber band on the spool although the shock leader seems to have a life of its own.

Re. the reel seat. Funny you say that, because comparing the Salt & Tidewater rods, the main difference in spec. is Fuji name-brand parts in the Salt - both rods looked ugly to me (no cork handle!) in the pictures although the Tidewater looks better "in the flesh". It did occur to me that it might be better to get non-name parts than bottom of the range name-brand parts. The reel seat does seem to be better than average, very positive, crisp action, not loose - at least on a par with the Fuji reel seat on my Royalty spin rod.

That just leaves the balance issue. The news is not so good on this one. I tested balance with the reel in place. I normally hold the rod around the base of reel, incase the reel clamp fails (force of habit, not wanting to loose my Abu reel as a child, after my brother bounced his into the canal). So the reel is at the pivot fulcrum -- or where I would like the pivot point to be. However the centre of gravity is way forward of the reel. I reckon Magpie's suggestion about sticking a 2oz weight in the back end would fix it - ever practical. The weight savings of carbon fibre will be lost but it will probably feel lighter. Perhaps balance is one of the less obvious details lost in cheaper rods. Surprised they don't just mount the handle a foot or so higher though. Perhaps I'm missing something As AtomicHaggis said, dangling a 2oz weight from the tip will obviously increase tip weight further.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by foxfish

Interesting point about spigot joints - I can see the logic of the joint having a cap to allow for wear but I have never used a rod long enough to see the joint close up!
In the good old days of fiberglass 484s they had a s/s screw down spigot!!

Funny, I had a yellow hollow fibre glass float rod at one time. I had forgotten all about it, I think it must have broken as it is not around anymore. It had spigot joints but I'm pretty sure they fit flush. Perhaps they'd been cut down or maybe fibre glass didn't wear much?


Yes, I remember stainless steel (and other strange metal) spigots. I picked up a very old childs fibre glass rod at the local charity shop for a pound a few weeks ago. Made in England. The tip ring fell off in my hand as I walked out of the shop! Its tiny, I was thinking I could use it for spinning from the yak but it is too flimsey. A half pound fish would bend it in half. Also, I think the reel seat is intended for one of those tiny old centre pin reels. Ok for minnow bashing at the cut I suppose. I've glued the tip & will give it back to the charity shop to sell again. As children, we used to have solid fibre glass spinning rods about 6 or 7 feet which we used for float fishing. I don't think I every caught anything with mine (don't even recall fishing with it) but they were quite good and would likely have handled most canal fish. Didn't try spinning until I got a float rod!

[Magpie]

Superglue won't help the blob knot much. It fails because the melted part is nowhere near as strong as the original line and the knot you tied around the leader pops the blob off the end of the line, thus leaving nothing to hold it on the leader and you come back with just your mainline knot. Yes, it is a bit smaller, but the blob also pokes out at an angle where the mainline passes it. The normal shockleader knot has the mainline in line with the leader so its more streamlined through the rings despite being a smidgeon larger.

With rods all you do is shove them through the boot above the rear seats (remove parcel shelf), between the seats and into the passenger foot well. No need to collaspse any seats, that's how they fit in the Ka (no, I don't have one, I hired it when I was away for a casting tournament).

HTH.

[Mr. X]

I'm convinced, I will switch to the shock leader knot described. BTW I have never seen an Allbright knot recommended for this purpose, which is what I use to join braid to thicker, stiffer mono. I would have thought the Allbright knot would give a slimmer, smoother profile.

Impressed by the Ka feat. Not quite on a par with the guy who lost his licence this week for driving with 12 people in this Volvo saloon (see what happens when you try to reduce your carbon footprint!).

[Mr. X]

While looking for a good link for the Shockleader knot, I came across these Angling discussions on shock leader knots in a similar vein:
* Shock Leader Knots - World Sea Fishing Forums
* best knot for tying a shock leader - have been advised but still not convinced what is the best way tyiny the shock leader to the main line all help would be most welcome (mrix is not MrX)
A similar knot to that suggested by Magpie, but different I think: Surfcasting Fishing Tackle
Another variant:

YouTube - shock-leader

Another variant, "the Slim Beauty", looks robust:

YouTube - Adventure Bound - Gear Guide Slim...

[There is another video of the Slim Beauty on you tube which is slightly different and described as an excellent replacement for the Bimini Twist when flyfishing for Tarpon!]

[Jonny250]

Nice one Mr X - some useful knots there. The World Sea Fishing site is excellent with loads of useful info, i notice a number of our locals are on the forum there too.

[atomichaggis]

Mr. X,

The Leader knot I use for surf is this one... Neil Mackellow's Links Page
I have used various takes on it like a uni knot etc. and they all work the same as far as I can tell.

I was gonna say that the albright works too... I use it on my deep sea gear to attach my rubbing leader to braid. sometimes I finish it by whipping fine thread around it to shape it to a double taper then a dab of fishing glue. Other knots have knocked guides out when under heavy pressure which can lead to losing a mile of spiderwire and a painful sensation in the wallet. You might want a weaker knot for surf fishing with lighter mainline tho or a snag could cost you most of your mainline.

[atomichaggis]

Neil Mackellows site is full of great info btw.... Neil Mackellow's Homepage

[Mr. X]

The variety of knots used for fishing, and all variants is mind boggling. The opposite of climbing where you can get away with one knot (double figure-8 or bowline) and 4 knots is enough for a lifetime of varied climbing (clove hitch, Italian Hitch, a prussik knot). If you tie your own gear, add the tape loop & double fishermans. Even the most fashionable "state of the art" joining knot for rappel/abseil is just the simplest thumb knot, tied in the doubled rope ends.

I tend to stick to the Palomar for hooks & swivels and the Allbright for joining. For small hook loops Palomar isn't practical, so I go back the simple old fishermans knot (I've seen it given at least 3 different names), although I now usually hook the end back under the final, main-loop in the modern manner - it's the easiest knot for me to tie in poor lighting, esp. as my near sight deteriated suddenly over the last year or so (age). I did use a Uni-knot for the "blob connections" described previously. I thought I'd used the Grinner before but browsing knots today, I find I had only half tied it. Seemed to work well enough, think I'll call that the half-Grinner!

I learnt the bimini twist yesterday! I thought that was the most complex of knots, and that I never would tie it but after watching 3 youtube videos, I got it. The best one is SA Reefman, who shows a slightly simpler and stronger improved version). Big game fishing here I come!

YouTube - Bimini Twist by Reefman

Similar, version but line drawings: How To Fish: The Bimini Twist
Seems like a lot of work to make a fixed loop though, I'd normally use the surgeons loop (thumb knot with an extra turn, tied in doubled line) - quick & simple enough to tie in the dark.