Middle lane vs side lane for dynamics

[naiad]

This topic has come up under Freediving Competitions, and I thought it would be good to have a poll. I have thought about the safety aspects of using the middle lanes of the pool, and I am not confident about it myself. If my buddy were to get into trouble in the middle of the pool, I wouldn't feel confident of getting him/her to safety quickly. I also find that if I am out of breath after a long dynamic, it is not pleasant to be stranded in the middle of the pool with a lot of weight on and nothing solid to hold onto. It would also make the surfacing protocol extremely difficult to follow.

I would be interested to know how others deal with this.

Lucia

[Kars]

I think for training it [can] be different. It applies for training when one goes near his maximum. If one is just practicing technique in the real easy phase than it's VERY unlikely that a BO of Samba occur. But given a choise I would certainly prefere the other lanes.

When a responsible safety rescues a diver from lane 4, the quickes way may be accros the lanes, in this way 3 other divers may be severly hinderd. Requiering an extra attempt, 3 maximum attempts a day is to much to perform a real maximum.

As lane 2 to 6 diver I feel less secure, due to longer rescuetime.
As Naiad stated, I choose a solid edge any time over a wobely float, with no support for the feet to stand on etc.

Appart from the safety there are many other isiues.

Judgeing: 2 judges a lane, 8 judges a side a pool walking allong. With all the colleages and support the Judge cannot see his athlete all the time. The safety swimmers make it next to imposible to see wether the diver makes use of the bottom. Appart from the 8 judges, there are at least two oxigen guys, two camera men, and 4 coaches. 16 People sprinting allong the shore on each side of the pool, I guess I would I do not want to walk barefoot.

Which Judge should I look to?
Can the Jury hear my 'I am ok' with al the water slashing arround?
Which card is ment for me?
With al the waves it's more difficult to keep my mouth above it, does the jury see that?
I've seen many decicions refuted by the camera images, is the camera man quick and steady enough to capture the surfacing of every athlete? It's very likely that more than one surface within the minute appart from each other.

Distance Measurement is also dificult.

Filming is also dificult, simpely no room under water.

I'm sure there are more challangeing things I did not think of yet.

There must be some very good reasons to want an 8 lane dynamic, can someone shed some light over this?

I just which there would be more discussion before it's to late to change a competition plan. There is so much know how among deeperblue, why not make use of it?


Love, Peace and water!

Kars.

[jome]

I view having the sidelane as a definite advantage over someone having the middle lane in a competition. It's just so much more comfortable, and makes diving more relaxed and easier to push further. At the end of a dive, I always grab the ledge immediately after surfacing and recover there. It's simply not the same at all with a float and especially in borderline recovery it is a huge advantage.

Therefore I don't think it's fair for everyone if both are used in a competition. Even if the difference is small...

Everyone should be able to dive in as equal conditions as possible.

[immerlustig]

interesting point, lucia. but that makes me wonder how safe you feel to do a max cw dive in a lake or the sea where there will never be anything solid until you're back on shore. it shouldn't make a difference (safety wise) whether you are in the middle or at the side of the pool. it is in any way a lot closer to a solid surface than it will ever be in a lake or the sea.

just some idea.

another question would be what kind of rescue procedures are you using?

roland

[naiad]

My rescue procedure would be to get the person to the surface, if necessary by taking their weights off, turn them face up, and swim to the side of the pool with them for the rest (blow on their face, talk to them, etc.). Fortunately I have never had to rescue anyone or be rescued from the middle of the pool, as all the many blackouts and sambas that I have had to deal with or experienced myself have been in the shallow end of the pool.

This is why I wouldn't feel safe spotting someone in the middle lane - it would be extremely difficult for me to carry someone heavier than myself to the surface and then get them to the side of the pool. There are sometimes lane markers on the surface, which would make things even worse, as then I wouldn't have a clear path to the nearest side. Things could be made still worse by a violent samba (of the person I am rescuing, hopefully not me!). I know this sounds like a worst-case scenario, but judging by what I have seen so far, it is far from impossible.

I wouldn't feel confident about doing a max cw dive unless I am certain that there is something on the surface to hold onto, even if it is a float or rope. I haven't done constant weight yet, but I'm sure I would use less weight than for dynamic, so there would be less of a problem.

Lucia

[ggarrett]

In competition, we take whatever lane we get. But given a choice, I prefer not to have a wall on one side. I swim to one side the line and the possibility of hitting the wall with my hand is distracting. In competition with safety divers and a camera diver, lane space can get crowded. Having an open water lane on each side of the competition lane eases the congestion. As far as safety goes, competitions are the safest place to do apnea. For training, I go during lap swims and I end of in whatever lane God gives me. The important safety factor is check in with the lifeguard and your fellow swimmers to let them know that you're doing dynamics. Swimming in different lanes, with or without walls, is good practice for competition where you don't know what lane you're going to get.

A note about walls. In Vancouver at the UBC 50 meter outdoor pool, the incoming water jets that line the length of the wall are so strong that they actually push dynamic swimmers away from the wall- even when in the second lane from wall. So, extra energy goes into swimming straight.

For me, a more important consideration is the depth of the dynamic lane. Coming up in deep water means the diver either has to 1) tread water, 2) grab the ropes, or 3) have the safety diver shove bundled kickboards in your face. At the end of a long dynamic apnea, treading water or dealing with kickboard floats can be just enough to push a hypoxic diver into a LMC. Being able to stand up after a long apnea, at least to neck or shoulder level, provides the most restful recovery position fro me. However, the most consistent recovery feature from pool to pool is the ropes, so I practice coming up on the ropes, taking my breaths, and then recovery protocol.

Another easy safety precaution is to practice saying "I'm OK" loud enough for the lifeguards to hear it. It engages the guards and keeps them with you. It opens the door for dialogue about freediving. Around here, the lifeguards can be half asleep, so keeps them this alert.

Just some thoughts..

Peace,
Glen

[naiad]

Originally Posted by ggarrett

For me, a more important consideration is the depth of the dynamic lane. Coming up in deep water means the diver either has to 1) tread water, 2) grab the ropes, or 3) have the safety diver shove bundled kickboards in your face. At the end of a long dynamic apnea, treading water or dealing with kickboard floats can be just enough to push a hypoxic diver into a LMC.

That is the problem for me - if the pool is shallow enough for me to stand, I am happy to use any lane. The treading water/grabbing kickboards is what I want to avoid.

Are the ropes lane markers? In most pools where I train, the lifeguards hate people grabbing the lane markers. It doesn't matter why, they won't accept any reason. The ropes also have plastic rings round them like a string of beads, so it is very difficult to get a secure grip.

Lucia

[ggarrett]

Originally Posted by naiad

Are the ropes lane markers?
Lucia

Yes. I meant lane markers when I wrote ropes. For some unknown reason, the lifeguards at our pools in Cheyenne have never had a problem with me "grabbing" the lane markers. Maybe, they realize that I need the support after a long dynamic.

As far a gripping the lane markers which a continuous plastic sections with floats in between: I don't really grip the markers. Instead, I kind of climb over them so that marker (rope) goes under one armpit, across my chest, and under the other armpit. So, I end up hanging on the lane marker. This supports me and allows me to catch my breath and presence of mind, then turn to the guard, remove my goggles, signal OK and then say "I'm OK" loud enough for the guard to hear it. I try to come up on the 'ropes' both in the shallow end as well as the deep end. However, I much prefer to get my feet under me as soon as possible. Hope this helps.

Peace,
Glen

[SanSan]

I fully agree with Kars and Lucias statement. As already said we had a comp. With 3 lines and a BO on the 3. line and it realy was hard to assist the diver. And there were 2 safeties right beside but one of ours and his personal, but he just wanted to get him out of the pool, what than prooved very difficult. We had lane markers set up so they couldn get him past those and the start side of the pool was half meter higher than the water. Imagine swiming with the BO diver and geting him over the edge. It took 5 people. Thank god they where ready. But it took far too long if u ask me. I belive it took them over a min to get him out. And it wasn't eaven in the middle of the pool.

Aftervards we tried to pull a man over the line markers just for test and belive me its aufuly hard.

So at least for safety reasons I don't belive its wise to have more than side lanes for comp.

[Kars]

In case of the WC in Switserland the pool is 2m deep.

When the seperation lines are tensioned extremely, enough to support me and my weights when I exhale (keep my mouth above the water), I consider it enough. But in regard to safety I would not want tot have the linese in place when someone BO's halfway in a 8 lane 50m pool.

Maybe it's a nice idea to check it in practice, clock the rescue time. I give it a try next pool training.

CW is a different thing. The last 15m the diver is likely to be boiland, and the O2 is really close to the point of surface.

Love, Peace and Water!

Kars

[Kars]

Yesterday I did perform a small test picking up a big diver, releasing his 5KG neckweight and 1kg whaistbelt, bringing him up from 3m and transporting him to the shore over 4 lanes' distance without any lines seperating them. From the moment I duckdived down to bringing him to shore took 25 seconds.

I feel that most of the time went into picking up, and releasing the two belts.
I ques it took arround 10 seconds to drag him trough the water to the shore.

With tight tentioned seperations lines, lifting these above the head of the BO'ed athlete is very hard. My buddy sugested that the BO'ed athletes should be lifted over the lines. Has anyone tried this? Or may be able to try this in a short time?

Merci, Thanks,

Love, Peace and water!

Kars.

[DeepThought]

If someone blacks out then the main objective is to get him breathing ASAP as the longer the person will be unconscious the longer it might take him to wake up and hypoxic blackout is where brain damage might start to occur.
So although some cases might require CPR and O2 administration I think it should be done as a SECOND and third procedure and the first priority is to bring the diver to the surface, get his mask off and blow on his face (to induce breathing reflex hopefully) (removing weights is a waste of precious time!). So I think FIRST procedure should be exactly the same no matter what lane in the pool or if you are in the ocean. A rescue breath might help to open a shut epiglottis (laryngospasm) and I think that can also be given in the middle of the pool.

Second procedure is what you do if the diver doesn't wake up (CPR) and third should be O2 administration, which I'm still at doubt as to how helpful it is.
For second procedure you need the pool side or a platform. How important the availability of those I do not know as from all the rescue procedures I've seen (less than a handful on live and maybe 20 on video) eventhough a platfrom was used in some of the cases it wasn't necessary at all (and a wrong decision in my opinion!). I think it is needed only as a worst case scenario - hard blackout = diver doesn't wake up on his own also after a rescue breath given = needs CPR or cardiac arrest=needs CPR).

Disclaimer: This is my unepxirienced opinion on this matter and I suggest this will be furtherly discussed and revised by people with more expirience in competitions (never been to one).

[DeepThought]

How likely would CPR be needed in a freediving competition? how many know/witnessed such cases?

As for comfortability when you end your performence, if a hard ledge or a rope/surface buoy and the depth of the pool is the difference between a samba/bo and a clean performence, maybe this performence should not be done.
My opinion is that freediving as a sport should resemble recreational freediving in open water in some manners.
I do agree though that everyone should have equal conditions in the same competition if possible - only side lanes or middle lanes, same length pool per discipline etc... all but weather.
Doing more standardization between competitions is unrealistic, the sea is not the same sea and not all countries have the same pools.

[SanSan]

I agree with ur rescue procedure Michael.

But there is something else on my mind. What if the "worst case scenario" does occour? What than? I don't know how many times it happens or has happened but if I was the organiser I sure wouldn want to take that risk. Even if it is really small. After all we are talking about human lives here.

[ggarrett]

Originally Posted by DeepThought

How likely would CPR be needed in a freediving competition? how many know/witnessed such cases?

In my experience, CPR seems very unlikely in a competition, at least competitions in North America. This is because of the extreme focus on safety in a competition. I have found the safety divers to be really on top of competitors' physical state- almost to a fault. I have blacked-out in competition and the safety divers were right there the second that it happened. The blackouts that I have seen only last for a matter seconds, maybe 3 to 6 seconds. As DeepThought said, the important thing is to get the person breathing, and not to the edge of the pool. However, if the person should require CPR, competitions have the necessary emergency medical expertise available to safely administer it. Again, competitions are the safest places to do apnea.

Interestingly, in my case, I have blacked out several times in competitions but I have never blacked out in my daily pool practice, even though I have gone greater dynamic distances and more frequent long distances in practice. In trying to figure this out, I have wondered if all the commotion by the safeties at recovery (getting close, getting into the right position, etc.) might push me over the edge in my hypoxic state. However, I have to conclude the the underlying tension of competition and my overriding desire to approach my limits have more to do with my blackouts than the safeties.

Again, being able to stand on the bottom upon recovery helps more than which lane is used.

Peace,
Glen