my shallow water blackout nightmare

[tylerz]

Bringing this all back to spearos, I hope you can see that the feedback is. The argument is that the safest way to dive is to not lower CO2 and to not pack. Regarding responses on pressure, gas exchange, and laryngospasms, to understand what is happening human physiology provides more knowledge for divers to understand their own body and connect their experiences with what is known about their body. This gives them more information on adjusting their personal diving style based on feedback from their body. And giving mouth-to-mouth is obviously a safety technique, and without thorough knowledge of its application, acting on assumptions could lead to more dangerous consequences than if one didn't.

So, my original response to yours, in the interests of SpearoPimp's, and other interested parties', concerns in this thread. They were a product of recognizing recommendations that are considered impractical and unsafe as they were presented in this environment for the specifics of the situation. Suggesting that it is in SpearoPimp's interest to purge and pack after already having a case of a BO is not at all cautious. So, I would suggest the recommendation was not targetting the concerns of this thread specifically, but instead a prefabricated idea of what is the right way to dive. Courses, for monetary reasons, must generalize their recommendations. They generally do not do in depth assessment of what is best on a per diver basis. Therefore, you can be quite certain that rigidly sticking to their practices is not the best solution for any given diver. To get the best experience from a course, you have to evolve and learn beyond it.

Sorry for the long post, but I see it as a severe thing when it comes to recommendations of safety. The most dangerous thing in my mind, is to influence people to not explore further. If you can't explain in detail why you are recommending what you are, then you should absolutely encourage other opinions to be explored as well. Being that this thread was about resolving fears, concerns, doubts, and major safety issues, I can't help but feel these concerns are relevant to people participating in topics involving newcomers and the less experienced. A false sense of security can come from the blind leading the blind. And believe it or not, everybody is still blind in this field. Just to different degrees in different areas. Not everybody comes away from PFI and other courses with such an unquestionable sense of security, some even having permanent damage after a short time employing the practices taught them, namely chest squeeze and ear barotrauma. Of course, I am not claiming it is because of these practices that they have been subjected to this damage, but at the same time it would be a lie to suggest it was not possible and just as likely. If you go to a PFI course or any other for that matter, if everybody tells you it is safe and unquestionable that what is taught is the "right" way, then you will go on doing things that way until something happens to suggest otherwise. That something may cause you permanent damage.

Immediately questioning, looking for substantiated verifications, and looking for more background of what you learn is the most reasonable means of prevention. So, where you seem to think the differences of opinion are due to lack of experience, education, or plain speculation, I am trying to say that many of these opinions come from looking further beyond what we learned from the same people.

[Fondueset]

Again - outstanding thread from all participants!

[Jon]

A couple of years ago I made an observaton that freediving seems to follow along the same lines as yoga and martial arts. That being there are different schools and different styles that one can master and each has its own merits and detractors. The way that Kirk teaches is not the same that Umberto does, or the way that Aaron and MT do, nor is it the same as Rudi. Each has developed their own approach and I enjoy reading aobut all of them- without ever putting one above another.

When it comes to blackouts I can say that I have never had one while freediving, not even a samba, BUT I have blacked myself out while packing. As a result I don't pack for diving, but I will llie on my floor and do pack streaches to loosen up my chest. I find them fine for that, with little chance of drownig in my livingroom, but don't feel it's worth the risk on an actual dive- unless I had a spotter right there, which we don't when spearing around here.

I know that we were taught to purge in the PFD course, but after reading Umberto's method of a much more relaxed breath-up it seemed to be more appealing for a long day in the water of spearing- to me at least and I don't mean to speak for anyone else. If I'm diving a line with others watching then I change my breath up to include that. Different things for different types of diving.

Jon (ymmv)

[Fondueset]

I barely feel qualified to speak - but I discovered packing when I was about 15 and had some mild samba/black out experiences - never complete - while practicing dry statics during the winter.

Now I will sometimes pack mildly before entering the water - just to open up my lungs a bit. As I mentioned before - my emphasis has been on deep, relaxed breathing and on extending the comfort range - without pushing.

It's also been interesting to adjust ballast for shallow dives by partially emptying my lungs. It's kind of interesting to dive without the effort of a full inhale.

Because of the place of diving in my life I don't like to bring any sort of compulsion into it.

[DeepThought]

Some of what I'm writing here was posted already but it never hurts to run through the basics again.
There's a thread in the safety forum titled something like "how to get a blackoutee to the surface". It has a few pictures and a debate on proper technique, check it out.

From my experience, exertion at depth costs me much more O2 than doing the equivalent at shallower water (the dive response can counter this).

The faster the diver will breath again the less serious the blackout will be.
Slapping a blackoutee does not signal to the body the calming message that air is available to breath again, your partners were not qualified to be your safety. Getting the mask off and blowing gently on the diver's face solves probably close to 100% of the blackouts (Some also call the diver's name). This should be done ASAP, not messing with boats or crossing lanes if you are in the pool. (alerting others is usually a good move that takes less than a second).
If the diver doesn't breath again there's mouth to mouth to try, if jaw is clenched you can also attempt mouth to nose. Those might not be so easy doing on the surface and without help.

Once as a beginner I had one stressful dive that left an impression on me afterwards. What helped me was standing - because that's the body posture I had during what seemd to be the longes ascent ever - and going through the details of the dive, focusing mostly on the stressful part. In the first few times I felt some of that stress rising again. I tried to immitate as much of that original stress as I could. I can't really explain what kind of work I did during these imagination dives, there was no real method behind it, I just played and fiddled, imagined things that happen and things that didn't... everytime the stress level was reduced till it became just another (clear) memory.

Now for the less basic stuff...
I know I'm repeating a line of thought that has been presented in this thread, but as an open community there is a value in supporting already stated things as someone might need to weigh them at the end.

Packing and purging are controversial, quite a simple fact that is demonstrated by us debating it. Or if it is "authority" that counts, citations (re. packing atleast) have been posted on these forums before.
I think that packing and purging could be quick performence boosters, but that doesn't make them the right/only way to dive. I think a shallow diver (<40m) can get almost the same results with different kind of schools, perhaps with more work during a longer duration, but some of us consider it as a safer apporach.
Just wanted to add to the doubt of using these tools for shallow serial diving.
I'm not adding 'science' to support this post as Tyler already did a very good job and there's plenty of data already in these forums about this.

BTW, I am not trying to dissuade anyone from attending a PFI course, I just think one should be aware it isn't the only way to dive.

[kmo]

I thought I should throw in a beginners POV on this whole high-tech arguement:

As relative new comer to freediving/spearfishing, having not had the chance to do a course for either safety or breathe-up routines, I must say that this thread has scared the crap out of me.

Following about 2 months of divable weekend weather, I have been doing a lot of spearing and getting pretty comfortable in depths up to 20m. I always dive with someone, but often we get out of sight for pretty long periods of time and basically dive solo. I know this is bad practice, for all the reasons mentioned in the thread above.

Anyway, on the weekend just passed, we went out in to a spot in 22-26m with very poor visability and did some drift diving. I was diving with some very experienced and well respected divers, and we all stayed very close together the entire time as the surface conditions were rough and we wanted the boat to pick us up.

Regardless of how close we were, we couldn't see each other from the surface once we got past about 10-15m down and were drifting faster than you could swim against to hold a position and rescue someone.

To cut this a bit short, I never reached the bottom all day because I had this thread in my mind, telling me that I was going to blackout for no reason at all. The fact that I never died might be considered a bit of a victory for Deeperblue, but I have some regrets about never shooting any fish when there were plenty there at 22m.

To be honest, I feel like I've never really pushed myself because I'm not sure that I know anyone who could revive me if I found my limit. When I first started reading the threads on DB I thought I needed to learn to pack, equalise hands free, exhale dive, and do all these advanced techs straight away, but I'm too scared to try anything but relaxation after reading a bit more.

[fcallagy]

Hi KMO,
I think quite a lot of freediver don't do exhale dives or pack or hands free equalisation but its still interesting to read about and see how others find it and maybe experiment in a safe location with. With the conditions you have described wasn't it better to come back up and dive another day than get a new pb or some fish but not get to enjoy them ? if you don,t feel confidence in your buddies try to find one that you can feel confiident with. Its 18 months or more since i did a course and havn't been to deeper then 10 m in open water because I know none of my buddies ( scuaba divers on snorkels ) could rescue me from a depth greater than that so I wait till I get someone that can or till i get to another course ( hopefully soon ) before getting deeper. Also you can test your limit and increase it by training in a safe environment but not by pushing till your in trouble (imho) I think getting scared is a good thing at times and I would have been scared in that situation and probably pulled out, the fish will still be there in 22m in better viz with less current someday just make sure we are still around to get them when it happens. safe diving and enjoy

[Cliff Etzel]

Originally Posted by Jon

A couple of years ago I made an observaton that freediving seems to follow along the same lines as yoga and martial arts. That being there are different schools and different styles that one can master and each has its own merits and detractors. The way that Kirk teaches is not the same that Umberto does, or the way that Aaron and MT do, nor is it the same as Rudi. Each has developed their own approach and I enjoy reading aobut all of them- without ever putting one above another.

When it comes to blackouts I can say that I have never had one while freediving, not even a samba, BUT I have blacked myself out while packing. As a result I don't pack for diving, but I will llie on my floor and do pack streaches to loosen up my chest. I find them fine for that, with little chance of drownig in my livingroom, but don't feel it's worth the risk on an actual dive- unless I had a spotter right there, which we don't when spearing around here.

I know that we were taught to purge in the PFD course, but after reading Umberto's method of a much more relaxed breath-up it seemed to be more appealing for a long day in the water of spearing- to me at least and I don't mean to speak for anyone else. If I'm diving a line with others watching then I change my breath up to include that. Different things for different types of diving.

Jon (ymmv)

Good point Jon, I do very much the same thing - I only do dry land packing to maintain rib cage flexibility when doing my breathing exercises - never in the water. It has been 5 years since I did the PFI course so things might have changed somewhat, but having experienced PFI, then IAFD and SAFER and most recently Aharon Solomons (with Umberto's book), I have to say that for my style of freediving, the latter is by far the best method - for me. In addition, after reading and commenting on JimQPublics account of his experiences at the PFI course, it seems that this topic has great importance for those who choose to freedive. Samba and blackouts are a big no no!!!

KMO - you should be scared! Most people never take into consideration that blacking out will happen to them. That healthy amount of fear is what keeps anyone from making an unwise decision.

It appears to me, and I could be wrong, that spearo's freedive secondly to accomplish the primary goal of harvesting their prey. Umberto's quote in my sig is a very valid one - "The freediver dives to look inside..." If you are not mentally present and doing self checks moment by moment, that is when things will go wrong. If one trains solo - one has to be even more so. Training solo is usually a result of no one else to train with. So again, the relevency of this thread is very important. Everytime I get in the water - pool, lake or ocean, I know in the back of my mind that a SWB could happen - so I maintain the presence of mind to dive well within my limits and if I am having a bad day, I call the dive off and do something else on dry land...

[lungfish]

Ok, so I will keep my opinions to myself.
If weekender Joe Spearo can find a way to dive safely after having every possible safe technique ripped to shreds by a room full of egomaniacs, he is braver than all of us. Personally, I can't see any help arising from this discussion and you are all just scaring the hell out of spearos and newbies. I haven't seen your names on any relevent research of your own, nor do I see you teaching courses so you are all driven by something other than a desire to help weekender Joe Spearo and his buddies survive.

Good luck, and happy diving. Lungfish is outahere and www.deeperblue.net can rot.

Lungfish

[Cliff Etzel]

Originally Posted by lungfish

Ok, so I will keep my opinions to myself.
If weekender Joe Spearo can find a way to dive safely after having every possible safe technique ripped to shreds by a room full of egomaniacs, he is braver than all of us. Personally, I can't see any help arising from this discussion and you are all just scaring the hell out of spearos and newbies. I haven't seen your names on any relevent research of your own, nor do I see you teaching courses so you are all driven by something other than a desire to help weekender Joe Spearo and his buddies survive.

Good luck, and happy diving. Lungfish is outahere and www.deeperblue.net can rot.

Lungfish

You comments regarding this matter are both offensive and uncalled for. Egomaniacs? If you want to continue to avoid the very real threat - be my guest. Me personally - I have taught - and will continue to teach recreational freediving in the way it is meant to be taught - with safety first and foremost. If you choose to leave - it is by your choice - no one here is keeping you from doing that. No one is asking you nor forcing you to leave.

All the best to you in your freediving adventures..

[Fondueset]

I agree - I find Lungfish's remarks unnecessarily adversarial and reacting to perceived intentions which do not seem to be present in any of the other posts.

I appreciate very much being able to watch informed disagreement in action but I do not appreciate judgemental bullshit. Lungfish's post is just noise on an otherwise informative and well-intentioned thread. As a novice in the context of this technical discussion I find it dissapointing to see the typical pattern of hostility which characterizes posts by people who are subject to the disinhibition so prevelant in Internet conversations. Deeper Blue is unique in having a very low percentage of these types of posts - which makes Lungfish's stand out all the more.

As I've mentioned - I dive mostly shallow depths. I'm sure given the opportunity I'll go deeper - and grow acusomed to it. But circumstance compells me to go for ease and speed of access at this time. Given my relative inexperience with safety protocols and the fact that I most often dive alone - I just don't push it at all. I figure the safest bet is long, slow breaths - accompanied by deep relaxation, though I do not consider this a guarantee.

When spearfishing, or taking pictures - I think it's important not to get greedy. It's strangely liberating to find myself just going for that extra rare shot and to simply let it go.

[Cliff Etzel]

Originally Posted by Fondueset

I agree - I find Lungfish's remarks unnecessarily adversarial and reacting to perceived intentions which do not seem to be present in any of the other posts.

I appreciate very much being able to watch informed disagreement in action but I do not appreciate judgemental bullshit. Lungfish's post is just noise on an otherwise informative and well-intentioned thread. As a novice in the context of this technical discussion I find it dissapointing to see the typical pattern of hostility which characterizes posts by people who are subject to the disinhibition so prevelant in Internet conversations. Deeper Blue is unique in having a very low percentage of these types of posts - which makes Lungfish's stand out all the more.

As I've mentioned - I dive mostly shallow depths. I'm sure given the opportunity I'll go deeper - and grow acusomed to it. But circumstance compells me to go for ease and speed of access at this time. Given my relative inexperience with safety protocols and the fact that I most often dive alone - I just don't push it at all. I figure the safest bet is long, slow breaths - accompanied by deep relaxation, though I do not consider this a guarantee.

When spearfishing, or taking pictures - I think it's important not to get greedy. It's strangely liberating to find myself just going for that extra rare shot and to simply let it go.

I agree Fondueset with your position. Your perceptions of freediving are a healthy one and one that instills a healthy respect for the freedive itself. Enjoy the moment for the moment itself. It is a very zen like attitude that alot of DB members share - and one I am glad to share with like minded freedivers...

[jimqpublic]

Calling someone else's remarks judgemental bullshit is ... judgemental bullshit. I started following this thread hoping for some education on avoiding drowning and it turned into namecalling and "Your way is wrong, my way is right, you are unenlightened".

I'm a new diver and I find those with much more experience than I can't seem to even agree to polite discourse. Too sad.

EDIT: 12 hours later I wish I hadn't come across so strong. Sorry- One thing I learned from PFI was to cut caffeine out of my diet. Makes me cranky in the morning.

Jim

[Erik]

Evolution of anything means that we have to admit our mistakes or misconceptions, at least to the point where we're not selling theories that have changed with time and research.
I've had to swallow my pride a few times over the last 10 years or so, especially with the internet. Once you write it down, it's stuck there for eternity, or until WWIII Better to have a retraction printed somewhere too: "In the interest of not killing people with my advice, I retract said statement from 8 years ago (ie: purging 20 times is cool and I will therefore kick Herbert's ass in CW diving) and humbly admit that I am a human involved in the process of evolution"

C'mon back Lungfish- you're a smart guy, you're into the sport, you're passionate, you've got lots to contribute. Nobody's trying to dis you.
Erik Y.

[laminar]

It's a shame that Lungfish has abandoned Deeperblue and is not interested in working through this discussion in a more constructive way. We can all learn so much from there discussions.

I find this discussion very relevant to the beginning, recreational or relatively inexperienced freediver. The only way you can decide for yourself what it the best and safest techniques for YOU is by getting into these topics in as much detail as possible. Just taking one person's word for it, no matter what records they've set or how many people they've taught, is just silly. All techniques and safety guidelines evolve (hopefully) and no one can lay claim to knowing the perfect solution.

When I started freediving, the common understanding of what was optimal among all of us at the time in Vancouver, including Kirk Krack and Eric Fattah and everyone else associated with those two people, was that packing was great - no problemo - and that purging was something to do in certain circumstances.

So I started off doing both, purging and packing. I distinctly remember attending an introductory talk with Kirk and Brett LeMaster, in which we all purged for two minutes and attempted a dry static. I made 3'45", sitting in chair, and was amazed. Three weeks later, I did 5'05" in my bedroom. Cool!

But when I started training and learning what worked for me, I found purging very finicky as a preparation for a breath hold, especially in the competitive arena. Purge a little too much, have a hypocapnic blackout, purge a little too little, and feel horrible and underperform. The imprecision of this technique scared me for when I was diving in the ocean. I never used purges while diving because I always wanted to err on the side of having too much CO2. Sticking to this style served me well so far. I've never had a blackout or samba in the ocean. But I'm also cautious by nature.

The same thing happened with packing, although it took a little longer. Packing in the ocean allowed me to equalize deeper and perhaps, hold my breath longer, although, I question that logic these days. It was a quick way to get deep. Eric used it to do his world record (ironically, Umberto has never packed to my knowledge and has been to 98m!). I used it for my competition dive. Simple and effective. But not optimal. The more sustainable method would be to reduce residual volume through specific training techniques and improve mouthfill technique. Over years, not months. This is what I'm doing now.

Packing also had other consequences for me and other divers. I've posted a great deal about lung squeeze and it continues to be something I'm sensitive about in the diving community. I've found that the only way to avoid it (so far) is to make very gradual depth increases and never pack. I dive FRC exclusively now and find it much more enjoyable that the "pack and shove" method. So for me, packing is bad thing to do and while other divers use the technique without injury, I still think that every new diver takes a risk when they learn it. I know a fellow diver who's residual volume increased dramatically after learning the packing technique and now he can almost never dive below 15m without some sort of lung squeeze. There are other divers who have been sidelined by squeeze - packing is always a factor (I know that's not proof), but it sure is suspicious!

So yes both techniques are used successfully by a large number of divers. And yes the same techniques cause problems for a lot of divers, even world record holders, even PFI members.

I guess my philosophy is to choose techniques that are as danger-free as possible, since freediving does have risks.

So to new divers who are trying to sift through all the details of this and other threads, this is what I think it important:

1. Spend lots of time questioning and considering things people say online or in person at clinics. Never stop.
2. Try diving barebones first: no packing, no purging, no special breathe-up. Just relax and enjoy every second of the whole cycle of breathe-dive-breathe.
3. Take more than one course to learn safety protocols and techniques because they are very important. If you can't afford a course, then start a discussion on Deeperblue and with fellow divers to get as much information as possible. Keep updating your knowledge.
4. Learn CPR and First Aid and keep it current.

Pete