Freediving Death...

[efattah]

Originally Posted by Bill McIntyre

Its the highly skilled divers who suffer from SWB.

I have a rather controversial opinion on that. In my opinion, the very fact that a diver suffered a blackout shows that he lacks skill. Having had numerous blackouts under controlled conditions myself, I absolutely do not buy the 'no warning' theory. There are countless things you can do and sense to minimize your risk of a blackout.

So, the way I see it, blackout during unsupervised diving occurs almost exclusively to unskilled divers. Skill at freediving has nothing to do with depth or time. The real skill is how to survive, regardless of adverse conditions or events.

This is why it is very good to have a skilled buddy. A skilled buddy is someone who knows how to keep himself alive. So, if you are separated from your skilled buddy, you don't instantly have to shake from worry -- you know that he is an expert at common sense diving & survival.

A good example was last weekend, when Laminar & I went diving. There was a gale blowing, and the location was current-critical. Huge seas were breaking off submerged islands and rocks. We knew it was not the safest environment, and we also knew with almost complete certainty that we would get separated. We did get separated, and ended up exiting the ocean at two completely different sites several km apart. At one point I was trying to swim against a 1m/s current, having to squeeze between submerged islands and rocks without getting crushed by the huge swells. The only possible way to make progress was via underwater sprint dynamics, and it took 22 consecutive underwater sprint swims over a distance of about 800m to steer clear of this danger area. In the back of my mind I knew that I had long since lost Laminar and figured he had taken the other route, with the current, around a far away point to a different dive site. Eventually, when I got out of the water, the first thing I did was get over to that other dive site where I expected him to show up. I had very little to worry about. Despite the poor conditions I had every confidence in his ability to stay alive. I found him just where I expected. He was also looking for me, and also had a similar confidence in my survival ability.

So, in summary, I'd say that 'skill' in freediving or any ocean sport involves primarily the skill to function and survive.

[laminar]

It may be a question of how we define 'skill'. Skill is often understood as overcoming - willing past limits - extending capacities - efficiency; all in the context of the loop between the ostensbily discreet entity we take ourselves to be and the various abstractions we create to measure ourselves against.-fondueset

Exactly. That is what I'm getting at.

[laminar]

A personal best or a record, on a line, in controlled conditons, is a performance at most. Other skills may be learned along the way, but that is not guaranteed. I would much rather dive with a recreational freediver who has been diving regularly for five years to 10-15m, than with an 80m diver who never dives unless there's a decent line or warm water.

[wes]

I am an engineer and have ben very fortunate to engineer, design and actually make things most of my life and career. My design philosophy is "everything is perfect when everything is perfect". This does not mean that everything has to be perfect, nor that if something is not perfect it is bad or wrong. It does however definitely mean that if something is not perfect, no matter how much you or anyone else wants it to be perfect it won't be.

Putting that into practice means working to make everything perfect, every time, with the knowing from experience that some thing will always go wrong and that if one thing goes wrong as you are building something (like you twist the head off a bolt or cut a bit too far into an metal beam on assembling something) that is OK and you can go ahead building as everything else is perfect. However if one bolt breaks, then another, then the I beams don't really fit and then the holes aren't lined up and need to be redrilled then you say well, lots of things aren't perfect and we are going to stop and take this apart and fix it and do it right and try again. Sometimes after all these problems occur people still want to ask me, well why do we have to do this again and then I get to say, well its because I am the engineer and usually they don't say anything else.

Now I don't know how this will sound when you read it, maybe arrogant or egotistical I don't know, though its the way my brain works and its worked out to be a very safe way. I think we all go thru these internal arguments with ourselves when we freedive alone, I am cold should I go in, these fins are a bit loose, should I still go out, I really want to dive down and touch the anchor at the end of that rope even though it looks pretty deep etc. The point of this post and this philosophy is that if you strive to make everything perfect or the best it can be, then you have the luxury of doing the occasional "stupid" thing, one at a time, and once in a while, and you will still be OK. If you don't worry about getting things right or paying attention then you can't ever do anything stupid without taking a huge risk. Some people don't pay attention to details like how their body really feels inside and are scared and worried alot of the time so nevery take risks, and they really should be scared and worried as this makes their situation more safe. It's very different though, than working to make things perfect and paying attention to details and having a large margin to work with and feeling comfortable and confident and at ease. When I did my PFI intermediate course in HI this past month, that was my goal, to make personal best dives while being and feeling, comfortable, confident and at ease which I did and it rocked. I had lots of margin left and I did a PB 5:45 min static and a PB 43m CW dive. The PFI guys helped make it easy but that is part of having things perfect, having a good team to work with and being in "good" situations. I have rambled a bit here, not sure how to wrap this up toward freediving alone except to say,

PAY ATTENTION to all that you can, all the time, then you can really relax.

Thanks you all for sharing and listening too - Cheers Wes

[Bill McIntyre]

Originally Posted by laminar

Was this person a great breath holder only, or would you say that he dove with desire to seek understanding of his limits and the unpredictability of the ocean? Not sure which you mean. I've seen several freedivers who are "better" than I am show little respect or understanding of the ocean. To them it's just in the background on their way to achieving their goals.

I never met him. I was only quoting what others said about him.

I agree that skill can have many meanings. In this case, I guess I meant physically skilled. Beginners who are having trouble making 25 feet are not the victims of SWB. Its typically someone who has been at it a while, can reach fairly impressive depths for long bottom times, and is confident and aggressive. But this does not guarantee judgement.

[fcallagy]

Eric,
I think this is where the skills come in and what others have mentioned about being skilful enough to say yes i/we can handle these weather conditions in a safe manner where as I would ( due to not being as skilful ) say I ain't getting diving today and avoid the situation. Not taking a shot at you guys just wondering what was the justifaction in going in to the sea when all the signs seemed to be saying leave it to another day.

[ocean_314]

To set yourself up for risk of life and limb, then you condsider that skill and sport to undue the risk that you put yourself in is not skill its stupidty. Life has enough natural hazzards that you dont need to make more.

[laminar]

facllagy,

Valid question. The outing in rough seas was indeed a learning experience. Although we had expected to get separated, we realized we had not talked the scenario through enough beforehand.

Also, what Eric is describing is wind-swell from a fetch of about 100km, not huge ocean rollers. So the waves were 6ft wind chop at most with the occasional bigger set. Yes, the rocks were dangerous. And, as it turned out, we had different strategies to navigate them.

What we should have discussed in more detail was these options. I was more inclined and confident to let the surface current take me downwind to a known diving site with an easy exit (sheltered from the wind and current), rather than fighting against it to make it back to our original spot. I have been in seas much rougher than that before, and while anything can happen, I cut back my dives in terms of depth and time significantly to allow for a mouthfull of water, or a bonk on the head from debris. Being in the wind chop was adrenalizing, so it was fun to be out in the middle of it.

Eric wanted to return to our original spot so that if I came looking for him at the spot and spotted his equipment taken, I could probably assume that he had exited the water. If not, I would continue my search downwind.

Please understand that we look out for each other as best we can, and will always be looking to improve our dive plan, but we are solo divers diving together. The alternative is to have a false sense of security (oh, I'm on the surface watching for him, so I'll be able to save him!) and very stressful and tense dive sessions. The whole point of this thread for me is to discuss how we manage our own safety alone and with others and how to improve that.

I think what I've learned from this dive session in particular is that we have different assumptions and risk assessments, just like anyone would, and we need to discuss them before going in. I have a lot more experience in surf, rough seas and wind chop than Eric does (from surfing, windsurfing, and open water swimming), whereas he is a stronger freediver than me. I saw little extra danger in the wind chop, except the rocks, which I steered clear of by taking making a wide berth on the initial pass on the way out from the start point.

Another thing to discuss: How do you experience situations that challenge your skills and call upon problem-solving and resourcefulness if your risk tolerance is too high? For example, can anyone learn how to swim in rough seas without trying it first in slightly less rough seas first? Or more pointedly, should new divers ONLY learn with a buddy or can they learn solo from a book or video or workshop and develop these strategies for managing themselves?

Discuss...

[Fondueset]

Sort of tangental - but I also often dive in fairly heavy chop. Here in Lake Michigan and the bay where I dive we sometimes get large waves but mostly they are notable for their frequency and abruptness - very choppy due to all the reflective surfaces. I've had days where I was climbing out on a ladder, reached and grabbed a rung level with the surface and found myself hanging by my arm. It's a blast and the biggest dangers are getting hit by a boat that doesn't see your flag in the trough, or getting bashed into rocks or a breakwall. (sometimes a little quease from the constant up and down of sudden swells) Personally I enjoy it. I also like the contrast between intense surface action and the quiet at depth.

On another note:

My best dive times, consistently, seem to occur when I begin to get chilled. I also noticed that my mask tended to leak at these times - but realized its because I can feel a good dive coming and start smiling. I also dive without a guage or watch - and I never compare dives from day to day or moment to moment in any competitive sense. I think is a good thing but I'd still like a guage - I give myself license to be completely picky about dive gear however, so I have to wait untill I can spring for an F1.

[cdavis]

Good question, Laminar.

To me, it is a bit of both. It is definately possible to learn a lot from a book, video, DB, etc, but not everything can be conveyed and there is no substitute for experiance. My advice to a newbie who wants to recreationally freedive, has access to books and DB, but no buddy, is: go for it, carefully. Just recognize that it is very easy to get dangerously out of your skill level and that an experianced buddy or teacher is the key to diving safely. Some things, like PBs for depth or distance and wet statics should never be attempted alone. I guess examples are the best way to show the diference between when you need a teacher and when not.


For example, my early experiance with diving was: read a book, borrow some gear and go spearing, alone. Worked fine, almost totaly safe, but I was only in 10 feet of water. Years later, DB came along. I learned a bunch and tried some 30 meter diving, much much deeper than ever before. Worked fine, but it was real clear that the rules were different for that kind of diving. It seemed much more dangerous and I felt the need for some expert teachers. A PFI clinic supplied more than I could ever possibly have learned by myself and later saved the hide of unirdna.
As another example, having body surfed almost all my life,I happily and (I think) safely body surf the biggest surf I can find in Florida (10 ft face), but I would not try middle sized Hawaiian surf without working up to it slowly and finding a teacher to surf with who knew the conditions. Pacific surf is very different from Atlantic. There are just too many things that have the potential to kill you if you don't know what they are. I don't think that kind of thing can be taught out of a book, etc.

Connor

[Almostafish]

The momment of your birth signifys your death. Enjoy the time in-between.. Simple.

But what do I know.

[naiad]

I guess everything has to be put into perspective. Many students that I know have a total disregard for their health and that of others. They are heavy drinkers, heavy smokers, live exclusively on junk food and are reckless drivers. I know many people think it's funny, but it isn't. Any illness or accidents that they suffer will have an impact on their family and those around them, and in the case of reckless driving, may cause injury to others.

Compared to all that, the average freediver has a healthy and responsible lifestyle. Of course, there are some freedivers who are not taking responsibility for their actions, and IMO that is wrong.

Lucia

[Fondueset]

Originally Posted by Almostafish

The momment of your birth signifys your death. Enjoy the time in-between.. Simple.

But what do I know.

I've yet to locate anything in this world that seems to be 'mine'.

[fcallagy]

Cheers laminar for the reply i have been out in roughish seas like leg it down the rocks fins in hands and try to get them on before the next wave breaks over you and on one occasion we misjudged it and had to head to a beach to get back in don,t know why we got in in the first place really but I have seen it before espacially if you have travelled a bit of a distance its hard not to go in but to actually train for it would probably be a bit like training for solo diving. an organisation could not condone it being done despite it being a wide spread practice

[Marwan]

to bill and eric, RESPECT! for your honesty. although the post has turned a bit gloomy, i believe that such real life examples really stress on the message of safety. Although i havent seen similar experiences Thank GOD, i have seen my buddy blackout once, and it wasnt fun, a million things go through your head at the same time, your thinking of your immediate actions as well as a few hours down the road if things go sour brrrrrrr, makes me sick to remember the sights and sounds...I didnt blame him or think less of him at the time, on the contrary i felt responsible to assist him, even mentally after the experience. i agree that a good/safe freediver should not black out in the first place, but having a buddy and knowing your limits could differentiate between life and death in many situations. be it for blacking out, facing a predator, bagging a catch, fighting a leg cramp from swimming against current etc.....
cheers