Freediving Death...

[wes]

Eric,

Thanks for the technical info on Terry's son' death. Would you please provide more detail on this C02 black out theory, how it works and how to theoretically prevent this. I freedive with my wife and often will be diving below her ability to retrieve me so would like to avoid this by limiting breatheup or whatever is required.

Thanks and Cheers - Wes

[trux]

Originally Posted by wes

... limiting breath-up or whatever is required.

If I understood Eric well, it is quite the opposite what he meant. Loren knew not to hyperventilate, so he did the opposite - he ventilated less than normal, hence building more CO2 in lungs and blood, and getting BO because of its high concentration at depth. So limiting the breath-up is probably the thing that killed him (at least it looks so) and not what you should do.

When breathing up, Important is not to change the balance you are used to - hyperventilating (breathing up too fast and/or too deep) will decrease CO2 and delay the signal high CO2 level sends to your brain; while hypo-ventilating (too short, slow and shallow breath-up) will deplete the O2 stock in blood and body tissue, and the high CO2 level can apparently lead to a blackout in depth too.

[Paul Kotik]

Originally Posted by samdive

and not just "with a buddy" but "with a buddy who knows what they are doing and has the ability to rescue you"

In the pool, no problem, you can pretty much train up your granny to rescue you from anything that might happen, as long as she can swim to the bottom of the pool....

if you're in the sea, you need a buddy who can come and get you from whatever depth you are doing - or a scuba safety, counterweight or other retrieval system and someone to operate it

main moral of the story is - do some proper training. An AIDA Course would cover all this stuff. If you want to train up a pool buddy, have them do the pool and theory part of the course.

best of luck - and don't get scared off, if you do it right and are fit to start with, it's pretty safe!

Sam

Excellent point, Sam. Right on. A buddy is only helpful if the buddy is competent and effective. Otherwise, it's just a spectator who can tell people how you died like a hero.

[josedesucre]

A week ago in the Spearo Board I invited members to give their opinions on the idea of making spearfishing competitions a team sport (a two person team), instead of individual, as it is right now. Nobody has posted any opinion on that thread, but after all of what has been posted here I am convinced that yes, AIDA/CMAS or whoever have any authority to regulate this sport should prohibit individual competions, for the sake of safety. The only big problem to overcome of course, is the size of the egos involved, but I think common sense should prevail.

[wackass]

Originally Posted by efattah

....hypothesized that he had a CO2 blackout on the bottom, but no one knows for sure....

Hi Eric,
could you explain a little more what you mean by this?


In Greece around 50 people died while spearfishing the past summer. A pretty high count considering how safe this sport can be when people are proper educated and not diving alone. I agree with all people saying that diving ( and spearfishing) is a team sport! Its beter to catch less fishes and live to tell the story, than catching more-alone and being endangered every time. Consider how easy it is to get a LMC or LOC while doing long aspettos and also consider how easy it is for a well educated-trained dive-buddy that is watching you during your dive to save you from drowning!!!
For me its also more fun to spearfish with a buddy.
Freediving courses are also a great thing. A lot of spearos dont take courses, just mask-fins-gun and up to the water.....

[ihab]

I’m not too experienced as I should be, I’ve only been spearfishing for 6 months ………..BUT the more I read about Spearfishing & Death….the more it sounds like a war zone and not a sport.

From my point of view and the way I’ve been spearfishing, is to get a long range gun (3 to 5 meters minimum), snorkel and hunt fish from the top.
Dive only to retrieve your spear from a reef ….and very briefly…if it is really stuck…take your time, come out of the water for more air and dive again only when ready.

I’ve caught reasonable size fish…offshore that is….enjoyed every minute of it and don’t have a dive buddy.

I may be missing something ….. but I’m not sure how I can die doing what I do……diving at +8 m for a fish is not worth all these precautions, regulations, laws, techniques…….etc., ….. and what have you.

If it is going to be deep…then you are better of scuba diving but that’s another story.

Again, I’m not experienced enough but sane enough to avoid……1) testing my limits in water….2) must have an experienced buddy to monitor my every move……. and a whole list of things I cannot remember anymore…………Just enjoy it and don’t worry about how deep you can dive…..!

[Fondueset]

I was under the impression most competitions do use a buddy system.

[Paul Kotik]

Originally Posted by ihab

I’m not too experienced as I should be, I’ve only been spearfishing for 6 months ………..BUT the more I read about Spearfishing & Death….the more it sounds like a war zone and not a sport.

From my point of view and the way I’ve been spearfishing, is to get a long range gun (3 to 5 meters minimum), snorkel and hunt fish from the top.
Dive only to retrieve your spear from a reef ….and very briefly…if it is really stuck…take your time, come out of the water for more air and dive again only when ready.

I’ve caught reasonable size fish…offshore that is….enjoyed every minute of it and don’t have a dive buddy.

I may be missing something ….. but I’m not sure how I can die doing what I do……diving at +8 m for a fish is not worth all these precautions, regulations, laws, techniques…….etc., ….. and what have you.

If it is going to be deep…then you are better of scuba diving but that’s another story.

Again, I’m not experienced enough but sane enough to avoid……1) testing my limits in water….2) must have an experienced buddy to monitor my every move……. and a whole list of things I cannot remember anymore…………Just enjoy it and don’t worry about how deep you can dive…..!

Sounds just like what several divers I used to know said before they drowned.

[jimdoe2you]

My college roommate at the University of Florida who was a student instructor with me in the UFADP (University of Florida Acedemic Diving Program) drowned in the pool of our apartment complex.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE WHAT COULD HAPPEN!!!

Paul, next time you see Tec Clark ask him if he remembers the incident about Scott holding his breath at the bottom of a pool, .....alone, .....with a weight belt on.

Jim

[naiad]

Originally Posted by trux

When breathing up, Important is not to change the balance you are used to - hyperventilating (breathing up too fast and/or too deep) will decrease CO2 and delay the signal high CO2 level sends to your brain; while hypo-ventilating (too short, slow and shallow breath-up) will deplete the O2 stock in blood and body tissue, and the high CO2 level can apparently lead to a blackout in depth too.

That's true. If you are used to something, be very careful about changing it. Of course, do try new things, but tell your buddy and do a little at a time. Almost all the blackouts and sambas I have had, both in the pool and dry, have been because of doing something I am not used to, and not necessarily a very long time.

[ihab]

Originally Posted by Paul Kotik

Sounds just like what several divers I used to know said before they drowned.

Paul:

Please explain how you can drown while snorkling....That would be quite interesting

[cdavis]

Naiad's point about be careful trying something new and Marwan's story of the experianced spearo who never had a BO until his freediving course fit together pretty well. A friend of mine, longtime, go-for-broke spearo, comfortable diving 50-60 fit, never had a BO until he tried a 120 ft dive in his PFI class, the video was impressive.

I strongly suspect that the sum of all the improved techniques that we learn in courses (and on DB) leading to greatly improved performance, adds considerably to the risk we take freediving and and makes having an educated buddy all the more important.

Connor

[josedesucre]

Spearfishing national and international competitions are individual. It is forbidden (and severely penalized) for other competitors to approach the site where another one is hunting. Members of the same national team are separated to prevent one of them to help or spot preys for another. Although I know of very few "accidents", they do happen. A friend of mine died, and another retired from competitions after suffering several sambas.

[josedesucre]

I should add: after the death of Gene Higa in the U.S. Nationals in Hawaii (July 04), Bill Ernst, then director of USA (Underwater Society of America) was quoted in the press as saying that the organization was going to consider abandoning the individual competition in favor of the two-person team, with only one diving at a time. But, as far as I know, it was not done.

[GCJ]

Originally Posted by Gillz

Hey evevryone...
Im 15 and new to freediving and I was just curious, what are the chances of death or having a blackout when freediving? Is it a common occurance? What can be done to prevent it?

Gillz

This is my first posting to the Deeper Blue forum. Like our new friend above I'm new to freediving but have been a recreational snorkeler for many years. To be honest I had never heard of shallow water blackout (SWB) until I started reading Deeper Blue.

From what I understand, it seems that intermediate to advanced freedivers are in the greatest danger. Beginners typically lack the means, methods, adaptations, and most crucially the "confidence" to achieve any depth.

For years I used scuba fins, no weight belt, did zero apnea training, and had only a crude proficiency with equalization - I believe all this kept me safe. I've now acquired long-blade fins, a weight belt, low volume mask, and am doing apnea training every day. Ironically I'm now in much more danger.

In my first training session (on my couch) it was very painful to hold my breath for one minute; I can now hold for three minutes. In terms of progress this is exciting for me, but I'm beginning to think this might just be foolish. Your body sends you these signals for good reason.

I'll defer to the experts on the true effects of apnea training - whether it is actual systemic adaptation, or just learning to cope with discomfort. A larger moral question arises of why would you perform any exercise that dulls your body's most primary survival instinct? Should we encourage or celebrate ever-increasing apnea times?

I wish my first posting would have been less controversial but welcome any corrections or contrary views.

By the way I've enrolled in one of PFI's courses in the new year and won't be doing any freediving or snorkeling until then.

-Gary James