Lung injury:(

[JCDenton]

Can someone give me some advice . I was doing yesterday my o2 tables and i think that i was packing too much. Cause now i feel pain in my chest and neck


What should i do , or all i just need to wait. Also today i feel a little bit better.

[trux]

Sorry to hear it. I think you should visit a specialized physician as soon as possible. Hopefully it is nothing serious, but it is definitely not an affair you should let go without examination by a doc. So pick up a phone, and find a doc now (best would be one specialized in scuba or hyperpabaric medicine).

[naiad]

I agree that if it is still hurting you should see a doctor.

About packing for O2 tables, it is not necessary, and heavy packing to the point of risking injury is not a good idea.

There is a discussion about the safety of packing here.

Lucia

[JCDenton]

Thank you guys. I feel much better by now

[naiad]

Glad to know that.

[QazzaQ]

Hi,

I had similar problems after one competition static where I packed too much. My chest started to feel strange, and I bailed out very early because I didn't know what the feeling was. The decision turned out to be right, since I felt some pain even on the next morning during maximal no-packing inhale.

I haven't felt any appetite for training static since that incident.

So: does anyone know what causes those symptoms? Is it really some lung damage or is it only the muscles around your ribcage area being stressed too much for too long time? I personally would speculate that it would be the latter, because there are no pain receptors in the lungs.

Looking forward for some replies!

-EeroS

[naiad]

These things are probably just pulled muscles, but there is a real possibility of lung injury.

This raises the question: is it really necessary to pack that much for static? I do pack for most statics in the pool, but not dry. This is just to make up for the effect of water pressure on my chest. I never pack to the max for static or dynamic.

I think heavy packing is too risky and unnecessary for pool training. I know some top freedivers do it, but at the moment I don't want to do it. Mostly I like to experiment with techniques (and learn things the hard way ) but there are two things that really scare me. These are extreme packing and empty lung dives.

I used to pack for O2 tables, but then I tried without packing and it was easier. If I have been training, I can do some quite hard O2 tables, and this is without any packing at all.

[QazzaQ]

Yep,

For me this was a classic example of over-focusing on results and trying something new in a competition environment. A perfect recipe for bad things to start appearing. My previous (and current) static record was 6:21 on 3 packings, and I tried to compensate my insufficient training by packing 21 times, and this resulted in bailing out after 3:30...

Is there someone who can tell if this is something that the lungs / ribcage can get used to if applied cautiously over time? Since then I've been very cautious about packing and everything else that puts my lungs at unnatural conditions (empty-lung diving) and I'm not very keen on experimenting on this myself unnecessarily.

-EeroS

[laminar]

You may not want to increase your packing lung volume over time. I know of at least three people in which this appears to have resulted in increase residual volume. In these cases, these same divers can get lung squeeze at very shallow depths (20m).

That being said, there are many who appear to be able to pack their lungs without any issues.

Personally, having experienced both, I wouldn't take the risk. Plus, diving without packing is easier.

Although, as Tom Sietas has shown, packing does make a big difference. Only problem is, from what I gather, he can't do any real deep dives without getting squeezed.

[jome]

Yeah, you can get used to it, but I cannot say that it is something desirable to do health wise.

Using my self as an example, I used to feel really tight with 5-10 packs, really bursting. But when I was doing statics routinely, I would pack 30-40 times for a start, and that was not what I considered "full". Ok, the volume of each pack may have varied a little, but still. You get used to both the feeling of pressure, ie relax even though you feel really full - and also you stretch, so you can pack more and more without ever reaching the feeling of pressure.

Right now I can do about 20 comfortably, but I know if I started to "stretch" again, I would be doing 40-50 within a week.

But the more information comes in, the more obvious it seems that such "extreme packing" is not a very smart strategy form several points of view...

The scariest packing "incident" for me has been what Eric desribes as "cardio vagal problem". Which basically feels like (or even is) your heart almost stopping. I guess due to the squeeze form overpacking on the heart + nerves and magnified by problems in electrolyte imbalance. It was truly horrible and I put me off training for a really long time...

[QazzaQ]

Ok,

So now it's just up to me to make a decision: do I want to specialize on performance statics, or do I want to do dynamics and constant? For me DYN and CW have always provided the biggest kicks, so I think I won't be doing any full-pack performance statics any time soon. Besides, all the fun of relaxing during static is lost by packing, so that is another reason to be avoiding it.

Thanks for the comments!

-EeroS

[jome]

Ah, but just imagine what you could do in DYN with lots of packing!

The dark side teaches things that some consider...Unnatural - or something like that

Joking aside, it is really hard mental wise to let go of packing. It's so comforting to have that "extra" margin in your performance, even though it may not even really be there.

Your example is the perfect example, over packing in competition "just to be sure", you know.

It takes huge mental discipline to let go of that and go back to the light side - still struggling with it my self, even though I've been ranting about it for over a year. And if I were to go into a static competition right now, I probably would pack full...The real question I guess is - is static really even a discipline we should be cometing in But it's the only one I'm good at, so I'm just hopelessly hooked for ever :/

[QazzaQ]

Don't get me wrong Simo: I will keep on packing for DYN and CW because I haven't had any problems with it during those disciplines. In DYN it's perhaps that 1m of depth and shorter duration that are enough to avoid problems, and for CW I even think that it increases my safety margin by extending the depth that puts my lungs below residual capacity. At least so far I haven't reached such depths that would require me to apply Murat's e-diving to avoid SWBO:s, narcosis etc. problems.
My point is just that I won't be intentionally training to expand my lung volume through packing. I know that my limitations in DYN and CW are not O2-related, so I think I can improve quite a bit before being tempted to turn to the dark side.

-EeroS

[Jussi]

Originally Posted by QazzaQ

So: does anyone know what causes those symptoms? Is it really some lung damage or is it only the muscles around your ribcage area being stressed too much for too long time? I personally would speculate that it would be the latter, because there are no pain receptors in the lungs.

-EeroS

It’s probably impossible to say at this point what caused the symptoms, but I don’t think that the lack of pain receptors in the lungs can be used to rule out pulmonary barotrauma.

Lung overexpansion barotrauma, from holding your breath while scuba diving for example, can result in pneumomediastinum, subcutaneous emphysema, pneumothorax and/or arterial gas embolism. At least pneumomediastinum after lung packing has been documented, and there have been reports of subcutaneous emphysema. There have also been cases of partial, temporary paralysis after heavy packing, which could possibly point to arterial gas embolism.

Pneumomediastinum, for example, can be symptomless, but it can also cause pain and sensations of tightness in the chest area. This is because air has leaked from the lungs to the mediastinum between the lungs, where it exerts pressure on places which do have pain receptors.

[Flojt]

Originally Posted by Jussi

It’s probably impossible to say at this point what caused the symptoms, but I don’t think that the lack of pain receptors in the lungs can be used to rule out pulmonary barotrauma.

Lung overexpansion barotrauma, from holding your breath while scuba diving for example, can result in pneumomediastinum, subcutaneous emphysema, pneumothorax and/or arterial gas embolism. At least pneumomediastinum after lung packing has been documented, and there have been reports of subcutaneous emphysema. There have also been cases of partial, temporary paralysis after heavy packing, which could possibly point to arterial gas embolism.

Pneumomediastinum, for example, can be symptomless, but it can also cause pain and sensations of tightness in the chest area. This is because air has leaked from the lungs to the mediastinum between the lungs, where it exerts pressure on places which do have pain receptors.

Hi Jussi, Eero and Simo

I have followed your input about the issus about packing. Very informative and good explained.
But the mystery will still remain to solve, how and what to do to prolong the preformance. reguardless if it's STA, DYN or CW.

But one thing is for sure, Packing must be used carefully, moderate packing will help you to take bigger breaths, and your pacing skills will improve over time. Then we have the amount of air that will be packed, I myself pack many times but get about the same volume down as one of my friends that pack less times.

So measure how much the "normal" lung volume is (residual, total, etc) Then measure how much are you packing down. I think it goes without saying, but if you do yoga and stretch the ribbcage and the chest, you'll be able to take bigger breaths and need less packing, so be extra carfull not to overpack.

If taking a break from packing, it's to start over and increase the packs slowlly over time. Don't for get to increase the flexibility of the chest and ribbcage. Anything that take long time to build up will have effect for a longer time.

Not much answers to the riddle of how to avoid lung damage, subcutaneous emphysema, than do your packs carefully and listen to the body. Better to bail out than overstrain muscels (normally the case, or damage the alveoes)

Just my 5 cents

See you guys at Underground Apnea II