Why did I black out?

[Mr Clauds]

Hey guys...
I'm yet to start training properly and only started doing the C02 and 02 tables 3 days ago...
Prior to the tables I had a max breath hold of 2min and after doing the table for 2 days, had a max of 2m30s (I know it's bad in comparison, but i'll get there

Anyway... today I got through my C02 tables at 1m30sec apnea and 2min down to 40sec recovery on 8th loop... that was no problem...
(dry Apnea)

Rested 5 minutes and started my 02 tables...
my starting apnea was 90sec and I don't remeber where I got to, only that I forgot to breathe as it went all dark... then all of a sudden I had this rush of movement though my body like pins and needles as my mind was so far away and felt invoulantary spasms thoughout (like epeliptic fit, samba?)...

My question is, did I blackout/samba? (it was totally frightening and will never be in water without a buddy), and if so, y?

Thanks

[TheDude]

Well first of all - never do CO2 and O2 tables on the same day !!! Its written in all the beginners guides... I think you just found out why

Second - never do any breathold in water without a buddy (and one that knows what to do when you blackout). Myself I only do tables dry - out of water lying on bed.

And from what you describe it was a blackout. The shaking part was samba, but as you mentioned it all went dark and you don't really remember it definitely was a blackout.

So keep it safe man, it's not worth dying for.

[Mr Clauds]

Thank you... I seem to have missed not to do tables the same day... Does alternating days work fine then?
C02 1 day then 02 next then repeat etc?
Can tables be done every day?
Whats the earliest symptoms of over training?

Thanks

[deep thinker]

Most people train one day on one day off and id say the earliest symptoms of over training would be lack of improvement over a extended time and or deterioration of improvement. As far as Im concerned the tables should only form part of your training regime and not be the sole method of increasing times. Id say add apnea walks and supervised dynamics to your training and also include wet statics to your dry times. This teaches your body to react in a similar fashion in most circumstances and also teaches you what you can expect from your body. Remember also to add some cardio workout to you training programe as you need to have at least some level of constant fitness to be at peak performance, but you probably know that allready. Aproach dive training as you would any other sport and there would not be any reason for not improving

[naiad]

Also, what position were you in (sitting/lying down)? I only do dry statics and tables lying down, partly because this reduces the risk of blackout, and partly so if I do black out, I won't fall and hurt myself. It also uses less energy.

Lucia

[trux]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Well first of all - never do CO2 and O2 tables on the same day !!! Its written in all the beginners guides... I think you just found out why

I do not really agree with it. Most of our wet static apnea training sessions (1hr) consist of two different tables, combined with other exercises, and as far as I know many other freediving clubs in France use to practice it in similar way.

What is really important is listening to your body, going out soon enough, and pushing the envelope only in small steps. Do not hyperventilate (it means no deep breaths, and also no purge breaths) when doing tables. And, of course, never ever do wet static apnea without having an experienced freediver supervising you in contact (giving you taps or clicks and pulling you immediately out if you fail to response). Having just a guard or a friend watching you is definitely completely insufficient. There is no way they can see if you are still conscious without the signaling, so you could die or suffer deep hypoxic damage or inhale water, in better case, in front of their watching eyes. It wouldn't be the first case.

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by trux

I do not really agree with it. Most of our wet static apnea training sessions (1hr) consist of two different tables, combined with other exercises, and as far as I know many other freediving clubs in France use to practice it in similar way.

Trux, I see you are a lot more experienced in this, so I will trust you on this one. What I stated was more theoretical as I did read it from many sources, also got this info on a freediving course. Maybe it is just not suited for beginners?

But back to the original question - why that blackout occured? I just started thinking more deeply about that. It might be interesting to discuss about what happens when you do CO2 and O2 tables one after another. These are my thoughts on that:

After the first table (CO2) the CO2 level in the lungs should be on a quite high level. But the blackout you described, as I understood it, came very suddenly. This suggests that your CO2 was on a very low level during the second table (causing no contractions). Only thing that comes to my mind is that it was due to hyperventilation in the 5 minutes between the tables. I guess no packing was involved as you are just starting out.

So Mr Clauds, could you give us some more info on this? Did you get contractions before the BO? How did you breathe between the tables? Did you maybe do some packing before the last breathold?

[trux]

Yes, I agree with TheDude - I'd also tell that the hyperventilation is a likely cause of the blackout. Unless hyperventilated (or naturally alcalic), or extremely motivated, beginners are rarely able to hold their breath in static apnea till blackout. But of course, there may be many other factors involved, so it is hard to tell. I definitely do not think that combining the CO2 and O2 tables was the reason - this is a classical training we do in our club even with beginners. There were already many tens of beginners going through the training, and we never had yet any BO during the training. And as far as I remember we did not even had any LMC during static apnea training, although our tables are more aggressive than those mentioned here. It is certainly not because the level of our beginners is better than elsewhere, but especially because the security measures are on a very high level during the training sessions. As soon as someone fails to response to a signal, he is pulled out immediately. Hyperventilation is not allowed. Also if someone shows signs of hypoxia (blue lips, dizziness,...) or hypothermia or other problems, he/she is sent out of the water and may not continue in the training.

[cdavis]

A puzzling example of BO. There have been quite a few instances of BO or LMC among divers very young in the sport, reported on these forums. Most, if not all of them, were not practicing what many people think of as hyperventilation (huffing and puffing for extended periods) Likewise, I suspect that most were overbreathing, hyperventilation by the more stringent definition, just like a large number of other divers. Could be those early BOs are simply the result of hyperventilation. But, is it possible that some relatively small number of people are particularly susceptible to BO? Maybe overbreathing is more of a problem for them, or maybe there is some other factor involved hematacrit, blood chemisty? Anybody have any thoughts or evidence of this?

Connor

[Mr Clauds]

Wow... This is alot to take in...
Basically this is how it worked for me...
Was seated in a chair, in a room thats quite hot (Bad I know, but aircon is out and it's the only place I have the pc using software)
Normal breathing till 20 seconds prior to apnea... breath in fully, breath out fully and then breath in to just before thorax tension due to over inflation and hold (this is done nice and slow)
Had absolutly no problems with C02 tables in this manner...
then the 5 minutes rest before the 02 tables I breathed completely normal as I would anytime of the day...
Then once again 20seconds out, breathe in fully, out fully, in fully and hold...
As I started, I got the slightest lightheadiness feeling that dissipitated quickly and wasn't enough to alert me to hyperventilation... and then the next thing I remember is coming round during some minor convulsions...
I cannot remember it hitting me really, cant tell you the time or if I had contractions or anything, the last thing I remember is the 9 second mark ....

[naiad]

I once did exactly the same. I was in a hot room (hot summer day) and I was doing dry statics in a sitting position. There was nothing else unusual. I took a full breath with no packing. I got an immediate feeling of having overpacked (too much pressure in lungs, spaced out feeling), but ignored it and continued. After less than 30 seconds, I blacked out, and found myself in the same position afterwards, breathing normally.

I think it was caused by the hot environment and sitting position. I have never blacked out after such a short time in any other conditions. I am not prone to packing blackouts, hyperventilation blackouts, or anything else which could cause blackout at the beginning of a static.

Lucia

[Mr Clauds]

that sounds like exactly it Lucia...
But then again I wouldn't know what's unusual since I havn't done it enough times...

Guys, could it be the heat and maybe the seated position that put some type of stress that could have caused it?

[trux]

So it was 9 not 90 sec? In that case it really looks like hyperventilation (the purges are sufficient to lower your CO2 considerably). And it was in a warm environment? In plus sitting? Maybe you have even eaten or drank shortly before, or made a physical exercise? That all together sounds already pretty enough to trigger BO at a sensitive person.

The body reacts on the heat by dilating blood vessels to cool down quicker. That brings a blood pressure drop with the consequent slower supply of the brain. Normally, the body compensates dangerous pressure drop by constricting some arteries in limbs or body, but if you additionally (even just lightly) hyperventilated (what you did already by the purge breaths), then carotid arteries are constricted instead and the brain starves even more. If the digestive tract is active, because you've been eating or drinking shortly before, it gets worse. If you are sitting, it is worse, than if you are laying. Additionally, although you did not pack, you breathed to the max (limit of comfort), and then possibly relaxed (collapsed) to the chair, where the thorax and/or diaphragm certainly reduced the inner volume - the lungs pressed on the heart, reducing so the volume it can pump. That's the next factor reducing the blood supply of the brain.

Summing it all together, it explains the early blackout very well. I recommend reading the following document to understand the mechanism of fainting better: Vasovagal syncope (fainting)

[Mr Clauds]

Thanx trux...
I don't think it was at 9 seconds due to me closing the window that was timing me at 9 seconds and feeling very comfortable...
Then when I came around it was in 3rd loop recovery...
Little bits of memory are retuning a few seconds at a time and slowly i'm starting to remember a little more each day... so it was def over 9 secs... but somewhere before 90 secs....
Out of curiousity... i've searched and read about the breathe up, and thought that purging would not constitute hyperventilating...
So could someone please tell how I can breathe without hyperventilating?

[deep thinker]

Easy dont breathe . On the serious side, Ive always hyperventilated, allthough I didnt know it at the time and then before I go under pack as much air into my lungs as possible not knowing either of these could be dangerous untill I did a freediving coarse and got taught how to pack should I so wish and also got warned against hyperventilation. Now what I do before a dive is lay completely motionless on the surface while breathing like I would normally in a relaxed environment and before I go down breathe out one last time and breathe in normally and just hold it, I never really think about it and never feel dizzy or hypoxic after I come up. I also find it difficult to put my breathe up pattern into words because of the amount of thought I spend on it, so maybe a good idea would be to do a freediving coarse where you can experiment with different techniques under professional supervision