SWB: Reducing the Risk

[TRITON]

Originally Posted by sebastien murat

Firstly, I'll assume you're not sprinting at the end of the dive because sprinting whether breathing or not => switch to anerobic metabolism = muscle 'burn.'

A couple of things:
- Except in the most extreme cases, no 'burn' at the end of a taxing dive => beware: BO could be around the corner. Exception = increase in Mb stores and anaerobic fitness will delay burn.
- 'burn' = good sign of peripheral vasoconstriction of locomotors even under exercise conditions. Most certainly due to central hypoxia-induced peripheral vasoconstriction, but also apnea/cold-water induced vasoconntriction.
-if you have a poor DR, because of excessively elevated metabolic rate, warm muscles, genetics, training, etc => little to no burn => bad news => risk of BO inversley related to DR, i.e., strong DR => reduced risk of BO.

This means one should opt for strategies that magnify the DR to reduce BO; strategies like minimizing the work rate in the first part of dive, etc.

For sub-max effort dives (i.e., serial dives) a 'burn' is no good.

It all seems complicated but its not. Best way to think of it is like navigating through a mine field: its ok if you know where the mines are! There aren't too many mines.

S

S

Sebastien, as I understood from your post , the "burn" that I feel at the end of the dive is due to DR,vasoconstriction and finaly muscle fatigue.
I my max dynamics that "burn" is always the reason I surface.I haven't had a samba or a blackout in DYN and my PB is about 135-140m.
Now reading your post I supose I could go for a couple of more meters with that burning sensation as it's not a sign being close to BO.

[sebastien murat]

The 'burn' is due to muscle fatigue because of the vasoconstriction.

Most divers don't experience such conditions for several reasons, not least excessive gear covering the face and limbs, known to accentuate the dive response. Of course genetics, training status would be other factors. Even fewer would experience the burn in the pool, where depth-dependent effects on vasoconstriction are essentially absent.

If you experience a burn, it is probably due to genetics...I'm assuming you wear hood, mask, and you swim from the outset (i.e., no prior static phase before a dynamic)?


You could probably swim further, but the question is how much? I don't know you, so can't say. I'd have to test you with HR monitor to know for sure. But that's another story altogether.

S

[DeepThought]

Originally Posted by sebastien murat

. Indeed, the more you work (exercise) during the first part of a dive (e.g., swimming down) the less your urge to breathe.

Why is that? I assumed the oppsite would happen, due to more CO2 production.

[sebastien murat]

Relatively speaking, the urge to breathe is delayed with exercise, or in other words, the break-point occurs when you are more hypoxic. This occurs because CO2 is buffered by the muscles (CO2 is highly soluble in muscle).

S

[TRITON]

Originally Posted by sebastien murat

The 'burn' is due to muscle fatigue because of the vasoconstriction.

Most divers don't experience such conditions for several reasons, not least excessive gear covering the face and limbs, known to accentuate the dive response. Of course genetics, training status would be other factors. Even fewer would experience the burn in the pool, where depth-dependent effects on vasoconstriction are essentially absent.

If you experience a burn, it is probably due to genetics...I'm assuming you wear hood, mask, and you swim from the outset (i.e., no prior static phase before a dynamic)?


You could probably swim further, but the question is how much? I don't know you, so can't say. I'd have to test you with HR monitor to know for sure. But that's another story altogether.

S

I don't wear a hood or a mask, just goggles and as my PB is 6 widths(one width is 23m) the "burning" starts at about 4th and increases progressively.
So it's a good thing that I experience burning?Does it mean that my body is trying to save oxygen?

[amihov]

It is possible that your fins are tool long or to stiff for what you are using them. Or you just need to train more until you gain more endurance.

[efattah]

When talking about training techniques, let's keep things in perspective. Personally I found that my best statics & dives happened while doing only one type of training: apnea hiking, nothing else.

Herbert Nitsch set his 111m CW record and his 9'04" static record doing only one type of training: apnea bike, nothing else.

This is not saying that wet forms of training don't work. It simply says you can reach unbelievable levels of performance with minimal wet training....

The more time you spend in the water, the better you tend to dive, but this is not only a result of improved dive reflex & adaptations, but also natural and instinctive improvements in your style & technique.

[jome]

This is getting way off topic, but I would be interested to know (and I am sure I'm not the only one), what kind of apnea bike training Herbert does. Or in any case, what is the most useful. Ie should you do short, frequent apneas, or max apneas and at what intensity should the workout be? I think a lot of people are doing it "wrong". Then again, I really have no idea what is right, but I do know that doing tons and tons of too hard apnea training will only lead to overtraining and frustration.

A lot of it comes down to strategies I guess. On an e-dive, or even sub maximal packing, a strong dive response is of course your best friend. But at least from my own experience, if you train "the dark side", water really doesn't seem to do much for the performance, because I believe much of the response is countered by the effects of full packing. But when talking about huge volumes (like packing 3-4 liters), the latter strategy seems to lead to better performance (but at a cost, as we know)?

[Mullins]

Training dynamics at or near maximum intensity has taken me up to some pretty decent distances. I can do about 4-6 days per week without symptoms of overtraining if I get adequate rest, though every now and then I need a few days off. Thought I'd mention this because it sounds like it is an unusual approach, at least for dynamics. However it has worked very well, to this point. I'm inclined to agree with what Sebastien has said previously about training specificity.

[sebastien murat]

Specificity, specificity, specificity

Motivation, motivation, motivation

Safety, safety, safety

But some of you guys are suggesting:
cross-training because you can't get motivated to go the distance and because your approach is, relatively speaking, unsafe.

I can't buy into this.

You make it sound like rocket-science: CO2 tables, pyramid sets, bla, bla, bla. No wonder you can't find the optimal recipe.

Sorry..had a bad nights sleep, which means I'm a bit too tired and short today.

Seb

[jome]

Fair enough

Although when talking motivation, it's good to remember that in DB there are as many goals as there are members. For someone who wants to be good at a lot of things, at the cost of being excellent in few things, cross training is even recommended. I for one actually enjoy being able to run, cycle and swim well in addition to being a moderate diver.

But I know that's not what you're discussing, so I'll shut up now

p.s I'm sure you're right that a lot of people do dry training because it is "too hard" to organize proper pool training . You have to deal with, staff, buddy's, opening hours, money (and ever more so with open water, finding a spot, building and rigging safety measures, perhaps getting a boat)...But you're absolutely right that for someone truly motivated this is a very poor excuse. A lot of people are waiting "someone" to take care of all this for them (a club, a friend, a mentor)...But such people may end up waiting a long time...

[deep thinker]

Ive just read through the thread and also just realised a few things that now make much more sense. A few weeks ago I had one of my best dives Ive ever had in open water. The only thing I changed was my suit setup by leaving my wetsuits hooded top on the shore and wearing a second skin over my wetsuits pants, with mask and snorkel ( You need to see to be able to shoot fish ). I was much more comfortable in the water I reached greater depths and my bottom time increased much quicker than it normaly does with the full suit setup. So this thread leads me to beleive that DR kicked in quicker and stronger due to the bigger area of exposed face and body in more direct contact with the water. So I can also see how exposing the facial area can delay the onset of BO by increasing the effect of DR but the only thing to do now is to get people, freedivers and spearos alike, to realise when they are at risk of blacking out because normally most of these cases are so involved with the task at hand that the possibility of blackout never actually occured to them

[Walrus]

There are many different training approaches, yet all can yield great results, can see with it top freedivers doing very different things. Herbert has 2 world records and seems to be doing this based mostly dry land training (or "cross training") and previous experience. Can't really draw conclusions based on even medium to large groups as there are always exceptions. Just note based on my own experience and some very good freedivers I know it's possible to get a strong DR with lot's of packing, in a pool, warm water, lots of hyperventilating, fast swimming etc

If you want to train safely you have to train with a buddy that knows how to deal with a blackout, your approach wether it's frc, packing or whatever is really not that relevant.

[Fondueset]

Sebastien's highly specialized focus on DR based training is of HUGE value to even poor deluded slobs such as myself.
It also explains why I feel so much more at ease diving without a suit - even in cold water. I used to dive, from time to time, in water down into the low 50s F with no suit. I'd be freezing during my breathup - but quite comfy once I was under and holding my breath. It felt like a boundary layer just over my skin that remained as long as I paid attention, relaxed and moved easily. Of course I would pay for it once I got out - shivering for up to an hour - but the dives are very nice. What the suit buys me is endurance.

[amihov]

Diving in cold water whit out wet suite can lead to many problems. I think that this is to extreme and can cost weeks of flue . Maybe for record attempt it will work well but for normal training is to dangerous.