open muzzle vs. closed muzzle

[foxfish]

This is a great thread to read so I thought I would give it a "bump"

[spaghetti]

Originally Posted by spaghetti

Open muzzle just gives you a cleaner aiming line, cause you have a visual perception of the shaft in all its length with no interruption. For this reason, some people say that open muzzles give guns a higher accuracy. Is it true? bah...Me I think it's just a fashion thing: newest guns are almost all with open muzzle, and this is why they are more expensive (new models have higher prices than "outfashioned" ones).
Me I've always used closed muzzles and feel no problem with accuracy. On the contrary, closed muzzle guns are faster and easier to load: unlike open muzzles, they dont' require to wrap up the shaft with the line.
...

Good idea Foxy.
And BTW, I have totally changed my mind since my own above quote dating two years ago. Now I prefer open muzzles for the clear line of sight, and for the fact that the shaft is kept in place firmly by the line, with no "dancing" in the muzzle bridge.
Now all my guns are open muzzle, except for the short ones for hole hunting (in holes you don't need a line of sight, but you need the muzzle bridge to keep the shaft if you hit the edges of the hole with the spear before shooting).
Time flies...opinions change.

[Bill McIntyre]

Originally Posted by cadiver

Thanks Strangelove. I see what you mean on the Riffe Metal techs. Also looks like the Wong Bluewater guns have an enclosed track. Is there any drawbacks to having an enclosed track gun. Does it result in a louder gun (wishbones rubbing on the metal enclosure)

I have Wongs with open tracks and Wongs with enclosed tracks. I find enclosed track guns easier to load. Once you get the shaft started down the track, you can't miss the trigger mechanism. With my open track hybrids, the shaft can fall off the top and miss the mechanism if I'm being bounced around by waves.

The main function of an enclosed track is to prevent shaft whip. When powerful bands start to accelerate a thin shaft, the shaft can become bowed and leave the gun doing sort of a sine wave thing, which doesn't help accuracy.

My largest white sea bass have been taken with open track hybrids using 9/32" shafts. But on those guns, I used three 9/16 bands. On the same length guns that have enclosed tracks, I use three 5/8" bands because the track prevents shaft whip, even though I'm using the same thin shafts.

I don't understand the question about noise. The Wong tracks are wood except for a delrin reinforcement at the front end. Other manufacturers may use delrin or other plastic enclosed tracks, but no one that I know of uses metal.

Edit- maybe the Riffe Metal Tech guns have metal enclosing the tracks. I don't know, but there are other reason why I wouldn't consider one anyway.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by spaghetti

Good idea Foxy.
And BTW, I have totally changed my mind ....
Now all my guns are open muzzle, except for the short ones for hole hunting (in holes you don't need a line of sight, but you need the muzzle bridge to keep the shaft if you hit the edges of the hole with the spear before shooting).
Time flies...opinions change.

Agreed, good idea Foxfish, this is very topical.

Spaghetti, having just read this thread for the first time, I noticed some other contradictions & wondered what your (and others) thinking were on them now:

In Caves/Close confines:
An earlier poster mentioned trying 3 different muzzles on his 75cm Aspic speargun but he preferred the open muzzle for close shots because the spearline does not get tangled. While you still prefer a closed muzzle for similar conditions because it keeps the spear in place if you bash it on cave walls (if an open muzzle doesn't, isn't that rather dangerous?).

Quickest to Load
You said close muzzles are faster to load but another poster claimed open muzzles are easier to load. Sounds like we need a timed "load-off" -- or have you been converted on the time to load too?

I'm thinking a muzzle bungee would be essential/highly desirable for open muzzle rigging to ensure that everything is under light tension to hold it in place.

[marceloplanchar]

once the gun is loaded you are a happy man with the open muzzel... however happiness doesnt come easy, i hate loading the open thing..... ive lost many pieces in my loading time.

[ulysses]

Beyond the shadow of a doubt, loading is faster and easier with closed muzzle.

Two years ago I had a unbelievable miss on a bass (close-range shot less than 1m ). Seconds after his initial flight the bass returned to get a closer look at the strange object that had almost hit it. I reloaded the gun on the same dive without bothering to reinstall the mono on the line release and - lucky me - 'made up' for the previous miss

Impossible to do with an open muzzle.

Cheers,
ulysses

[azapa]

good bump foxy!

After "converting" my closed muzzle Cayman to open by firing a sharktooth spear though it... I am now a convert.

Every time i try to shoot a closed, something bothers me. I am convinced that unlike target shooting, spearing is 75% instinct, 25% aim - just like skeet shotguns with that raised rib, having the entire spear to line up on is great.

I have developed a "pin and lumpy thing" system for the muzzle the routes the shooting line nice and tight over the spear, no wobbles. I can load and dive again in 1:30 so it is not too long. (i think, how long does it take you lot?)

cheers

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by azapa

...After "converting" my closed muzzle Cayman to open by firing a sharktooth spear ...

ouch!

Good tale Ulysses. Miles has mentioned doing something similar in the past. For me, getting the spear in the muzzle, properly oriented, ensuring the spearline is not trapped or going under the rail is the tricky part (perhaps not such an issue if you don't have a rail), putting the line on the release is pretty quick (as long as it goes on first time). I guess that's why the Commanche has those little plastic clips all over the place, as well as the normal line release.

I would think the open muzzle could save some time as the spear can be placed directly into the trigger mech, w/o having to slide the butt of the spear right up to the muzzle end of the barrel first. I guess a lot depends on how quickly you can get the line over the 2 end guides. I wonder if a Riffe-like muzzle magnetic would help -- perhaps allow the spear to be held well enough to make a quick shot w/o securing the spear with the spear-line.

Anybody timed/videoed themselves loading?

[bluewaterkiller]

Originally Posted by Hamrrhed

One of the largest advantages I found with open muzzles is the speed at which I can reload. .

yes in your pool ..may be ..why don`t you try in some passes like we got here with 18 knots current ...will see ..

T
o be more objective they Both get some advantages and both get their
problems..

depend where, conditions, and so and so...
the easyests could be enclosed tracks with an open track on front for easyest loading ..but this only exist on ~big~ guns as far as i know.
i worked on an euro full enclosed track carbon gun but never had time to finalize it .. for moment we only get half enclosed track carbon euros guns and they are enough...
about open muzzles for euro gun it is already 8 years that we modified our first one from an imersion closed muzzle..at this time they were no one that was offering this on the market ...


here is the proto ..imersion closed muzzle screw in rubber modify to open and one band..



hello pappy.. ha ha !

rgds all

[foxfish]

Hi Bluewater, you might be able to win a enclosed track euro The Spearo Board - DeeperBlue.net Forums in our competition?

[bluewaterkiller]

Originally Posted by foxfish

Hi Bluewater, you might be able to win a enclosed track euro The Spearo Board - DeeperBlue.net Forums in our competition?

so what is this all about in resume ..where are you now?

[foxfish]

Yes I can see there would be a lot to read from the start - So far the gun that will eventually be the prize, is taking shape as a, euro stye multi laminate enclosed track design! We have one poll running at the moment to decide on the trigger posision. http://forums.deeperblue.net/spearo-...-location.html. However there is a discussion thread where we are thinking about the overall shape http://forums.deeperblue.net/spearo-...gun-shape.html
Then you can see what has happened in real life where our gun builder has his own thread. http://forums.deeperblue.net/spearo-...nza-build.html

[bluewaterkiller]

[quote=foxfish;713703]Yes I can see there would be a lot to read from the start - So far the gun that will eventually be the prize, is taking shape as a, euro stye multi laminate enclosed track design!

thanks .i think there are too many already this euro-guns in wood .in italy they are specialists.they having lot experiences ..
if it would have been a carbon fiber enclosed track i would have been interested in participating .but for a woodie ...euro.. there are a lots here in tahiti ..it is also a tahitian specialty..
because from the compromise that must be done from strenght / flottation /and maneuvrability i doubt an euro woodie would be a ``revolutionnary` gun without an add from other material s carbon or ..
as a D wong gun.
i will help if can .. but only get experiences in woodies for BIG blue water guns..













is a 67 enclosed wood track ``Drop shape`` w a 3/8 shaft..

rgds marco

[foxfish]

OK but dont you consider a 90cm euro made by a craftsman from selected teak & purple heart, fitted with a derlin track & a possible falward set trigger, very interesting?
Of course there may be lots of other "undiscussed & undecided" features yet to be assablished, built into the gun. There will only be top quality materials used & the unique value of ownership as a prize.

[bluewaterkiller]

Originally Posted by foxfish

OK but dont you consider a 90cm euro made by a craftsman from selected teak & purple heart, fitted with a derlin track & a possible falward set trigger, very interesting?

for most guys i would say yes .. but when you know to DIY ..
and we don`t as it does not worth the work and time spend in ..for an euro wood.
but this is only my opinion ..and i like better some one else winning it ..
i already got too many guns..
but good luck ..