flopper size

[azapa]

OK, so this weekend I shoot my largest fish to date, an 8Kg grouper in the freakiest cave you can imagine (tiny entrance, cavernous back). The cave explodes with angry fish, kicking up the sand etc. Four dives later I have the fish at the front of the cave, just a large rock at the cave mouth between me and bragging rights (and full freezer).

Like and IDIOT (have replayed this for the past 3 days in my head) instead of grabbing the fish (I was a bit scared, his toothy mouth was bigger than my hand) i pull on the spear. (slow motion part) the spear comes back though the fish, the wound had expanded in the fight, I am left holding it in my hand. There are these agonizing few seconds before the now tired fish realizes this. I try to "put the spear back in" (how pathetic) and it bolts................. IDIOT ME.

Now, I look at the omer sharktooth spear I was using: Tahitian spear 6.5mm america OMER Accessories Guns Chile Dive Scuba store .com

And I look at the original spear: Spear 6.5mm single flopper OMER Accessories Guns Chile Dive Scuba store .com

And the old one has the flopper twice as long.

WHY THE HELL would you want a shorter flopper? I am aware of the tweaking trick to keep it open, but after a cave-fight scenario, it tends to close a little.

What about the double barbs? Any experience there?

[ulysses]

Damn it, azapa!

You lost a nice fish and it probably died for nothing

I doubt the flopper was too small to hold the fish (where did you hit it?). 9/10 times in such instances the flopper was not adjusted properly. It should move freely until an angle of approx. 45° and should firmly lock thereafter.

Simple test:

(1) Close the (adjusted) flopper.
(2) Hold the shaft horizontally.
(3) Hit the shaft in the middle with your palm or fist.

=> The vibration should open the flopper and it should stay open even if you hit the shaft again.

I suggest you read PVE's tutorial again:

Document sans titre
Document sans titre

and readjust your floppers.

Another critical aspect related to big & fighting fish:

=> Always try to keep traction on the shaft / shaft line after the spear has passed through the fish so that the open flopper stays in constant contact with the fish and cannot accidentally close.

Cheers, ulysses

[azapa]

yes Ulysses, the worst thing is that this majestic fish will now become part of the underwater food chain.

The shot was "ok" at best, center of mass, but below spine, just above stomach. I do adjust and do the test you talk of, I saw that in the Spanish "apnea" magazine and even teach the trick to my buddies. Your attached documents are very good.

I lost a little traction. I was on my own (not good) and very aware of hyperventilation (adrenalin). It was 12M exactly, well within my range.

But with the huge explosion in the cave, the floppers "stuck open" position is not going to last, and it was probably closing, and sans firing jolt, not properly opening again.

I am not using less than 70mm floppers again. These look cool:
Squalo shafts for arbalete gun by Salvi & Figli S.r.l.

(I looked for the hurt fish and found a 4Kg grouper on the way, now in the freezer. Funny how small it looked after the one I lost..)

[Mr. X]

Why use a smaller flopper? Don't know, maybe: less weight/drag at muzzle, quicker to open when the spear exits* the fish, "flight" characteristic of the spear, balance droop in the centre of a rail-less barrel.
*Might be important in a small cave or if shooting fish (e.g. flatties) on/near the sea bed.

The same thought occurred to me though when I noticed this while browsing the new Rob Allen website:

"Replacement spear barbs are available in four sizes:
85mm, 71mm, 53mm and 48mm"

Although I don't understand French, it seems to me like there is a section on the above link that mentions certain size floppers being associated with certain length spears (maybe).

[Old Man Dave]

Never used a trident head much myself but some people swear by them especially for use on fish in caves/holes. The "mac" ones are suposed to be the dogs what'sit's. Expensive though, I think. Seen them in use on a DVD and the term "paraliser" certainly seems apropriate.

My "hole" diving was always done with a short pneumatic firing an 8mm shaft with a twin barb (flopper) head. The barbs were spring loaded to fly open when a fish was struck.

Dave

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by Old Man Dave

Never used a trident head much myself but some people swear by them especially for use on fish in caves/holes. The "mac" ones are suposed to be the dogs what'sit's. Expensive though, I think. Seen them in use on a DVD and the term "paraliser" certainly seems apropriate.
Dave

MATC tridents (blend between tahitian and multiprong) are very effective for bassing in low viz conditions and fish up to 5kg, IMO esp. with a 70cm airgun (tridents need a lot of propulsion). The French - not yet introduced to the benefits of airguns - use 75/90cm arbaletes with 20mm bands.

A grouper of the size Azapa lost, however, will twist and terribly deform the prongs on a MATC (EUR50 down the drain).

In the 80ies when airguns were still more widely used in Italy than band-guns, some Pros adopted screw-on mutliprongs (5 or 6 dents) for cave hunting groupers. Strategie: shot it in the head, retrieval of the paralyzed grouper by pulling on the two openings on the multiprong-base that assist loading, removal of the multiprong from the shaft (still sticking in the grouper's scull), installation of a new mutliprong, next victim ... not my cup of tea.

Cheers, ulysses

[azapa]

a buddy (thanks Carluti) on hearing my sad story gave me a longer flopper kit with rivet. I'll fit in the next few days a probably do a few photos of the whole process to save the next spearo and grouper from suffering...

let me ask you this ulysses:
a 90Cm gun uses a 130Cm shaft, a 80CM a 125Cm etc etc. I use a shorter shaft on my gun but have heard that it will destroy the "pointability" or natural aim. I have been using a 125cm shaft on the 90 gun for a while and have not noticed any such problem. I am considering shortening more now with the flopper change. What do you say??? BTW buying a new gun is not an option.

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by azapa

let me ask you this ulysses:
a 90Cm gun uses a 130Cm shaft, a 80CM a 125Cm etc etc. I use a shorter shaft on my gun but have heard that it will destroy the "pointability" or natural aim. I have been using a 125cm shaft on the 90 gun for a while and have not noticed any such problem. I am considering shortening more now with the flopper change. What do you say??? BTW buying a new gun is not an option.

It depends on whether you are using a closed or open muzzle arbalete:

On an open muzzle gun you can go down one whole size without any problems (e.g. use a 115cm shaft for a 90cm gun).

However, doing the same on a closed muzzle gun generally impairs aiming because you can no longer see the tip of the shaft.

Cheers, ulysses

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by azapa

... I have been using a 125cm shaft on the 90 gun for a while and have not noticed any such problem. I am considering shortening more now with the flopper change...

Thanks for posting that. I was thinking of getting a spear 5-10cm shorter (e.g. 120/125 vs. 130cm) & thinner (6.3 vs. 6.6mm) for my 90, so good to hear it works fine for you. Long ago I asked Rob Allen-- as railguns are reputedly more tolerant of different spear length as they don't suffer spear droop -- & he reckoned better not to go more than 10cm shorter, although gave no reason why. Perhaps due to aiming...

Originally Posted by ulysses

...On an open muzzle gun you can go down one whole size without any problems (e.g. use a 115cm shaft for a 90cm gun).

However, doing the same on a closed muzzle gun generally impairs aiming because you can no longer see the tip of the shaft.
...

Unless you sight alone the side of the barrel SA-style, as advocated in Len Jones book. Easier if, like the RA railguns, you have no loading butt blocking you view of the side of the speargun.

IDEA: maybe they should make loading butts so that you can positioned to suit your aiming style - vertical for side-aimers, horizontal for top aiming..

[settingsteel]

I shoot a farter so things may apply differently...I notice a shaft on my 970 cyranos that extends abit out of the barrel say 5cm shoots straight on, the shaft I normally shoot extends 22cm and has a tendency to shoot a bit high, which I now prefer (that it shoot a bit high) I like the extra leverage the long shaft applies when hussling fish.

As for the situation of your flopper...in my set up I use a 7x7...that is I have all my tips made to be- 7cm of point and 7cm of flopper, I think more often a short distance b/t flopper and point is what loses fish more so than a "too" short flopper, plenty of guys that have used these tips have seldom if ever lost any fish...the only drawback is the shaft needs to penetrate about 14cm to engage...I will add I use this set up for hole punching to and have had excellent results...I would suggest if anything you go with about a 4cm flopper but bring it down to about 6-7 from the tip...that should increase you stringers weight...my 2 cuban centavos

[Old Man Dave]

Originally Posted by Old Man Dave

My "hole" diving was always done with a short pneumatic firing an 8mm shaft with a twin barb (flopper) head. The barbs were spring loaded to fly open when a fish was struck.
Dave

Further to the last post and in reply to how the spring barb works. There is a small piece of rubber beneath both barbs that hold them open. You hold them closed with a small stainless ring that is captive on the spear head at the back end of the barbs (floppers). Basically the ring holds the back end of the barbs against the spearshaft compressing the rubber "springs". Even in flight the barbs are held shut but on passing through anything solid like a fish the ring is pushed back off the barbs and they spring open. Hard to explain but a simple foolproof system in practice.

Dave

[azapa]

have a peek at http://forums.deeperblue.net/speargu...orten-diy.html

[bluewaterkiller]

Originally Posted by azapa

WHY THE HELL would you want a shorter flopper?

What about the double barbs? Any experience there?

just simple as : it is upon what fish you going to spear and where this fish is living..
means some fishes that you know you gone to shoot in a cave , or if the fish is swimming closed to some rocks, corals ,then shootin the fish mean going
through with the 5/7 cms point and 5/7 8cms barb lenght
if yr barb is 8 cms + placed at 7 cms from the point = 15 cms at least is necessary to be openning the barb ..
if the fish is 1 cms away from the wall and his 13 cms thick then it could be not openning ..
this is why there are some spears with diff sizes barbs places closer from point or not.

then double barbs are ok for ``light ``bluewater -open water fishes purposes.
are not good in corals .as when they are on bottom they are often stocked in corals and you must dive there to get them back same for slip tips.
if you shoot a fish tht is not killed-shooted and his swimming down to bottom there is big chances that it stayed stocked there from the point
and if this happens under where you can dive ...200 feet?
you ve to cut yr line and loosing yr shaft..

and come back with a tank ..may be..

all the bests chile man
marco