Constant under ice...

[Ambra]

Yeah,but it was last year .He made several dives i Norway for the past 4 years,and now he is on The North Pole for another record dive.
The last "Norway" dive was 5o m - 4.4.2004,Djupvatnet.
p.s. he had Cressi-Minima mask.


stay deep!

[Chris]

i have the infos from the croation newsagency "Hina" ...

[dive4ever]

Originally Posted by Chris

i read that kike dived in a norwegen lake not on the n-pol??!!??
the lake is called "Djupvatnet" ...
and he dived without a mask!

that wos long time ago...
kikes newest dive was on n-pole

[dive4ever]

sorry gajz i didnt read the answer from ambra

[efattah]

In the topic of cold water dives, today in Vancouver the water at the surface was 15C; just under the surface it was 10C; at 30m it was about 8C, and over 50m it was about 6C. I managed 80.5m in 3'05" with no wetsuit. It was also the deepest I've gone with the new F1 computer. Descent time was 1'50", ascent time was 1'15". I shivered for about 1/2 hour after I got out.

I used my custom waterway mono, a sphera mask, an 1800g weight belt, and a swim cap, and lanyard.

[Ambra]

Amazing,you were always talking that is possible to freedive without a wetsuit in really cold/freezing conditions with little/no heat insulation.

-what about your preparation before the dive-usual as you always doing?
surface time?

-concetration? heart rate?compensation?

------------------

regards!

[Alun]

Eric,

can you give more details please?:

how many build-up dives have you done in recent weeks to reach this depth?

is this the first time you've been 80+ since 2001? congrats!

how long were you immersed before you began the dive? were you shivering before the dive? did you feel tense due to the cold?

what was your "warm-up"? (!)

did you really need to wear all that weight? didn't you wear 1700g in 2001, and you thought you were overweighted then.

you have a very long descent- am i right in thinking that you sank very early in the dive?

why a weight belt and not a neck weight?

was the dive "clean"? how much more do you think you could do?

i assume this was a normal full lung dive with packing?

at what depth did you reach terminal velocity- and what was it?

it seems the waters in Canada are generally warmer than it is here. only last week the surface temperature was 7C. it's suddenly jumped to 10C. 15C is more or less mid-summer conditions for us.

tell us more about the advantages of diving with no-suit.

...and i thought 76m in 15C was pretty deep

sorry for all the questions, this is what you get for diving 80m with no suit!

[efattah]

More info:
- I hadn't done any deep dives since my no-suit dive at Nationals last June (74.5m 2'45")
- In fact I hadn't dove at all, except for once a weekend for three weekends, recreational diving to a max of 38m (with wetsuit)
- I hadn't done any dry land training except 20 consecutive days of intensive pranayama and chi-gong (2-3hrs a day)
- After this intensive yoga/chi-gong streak, I attempted my first dry static, and made 7'22" on the first attempt
- I did a 'squat test' to check the stored energy in my legs and got 21, more than enough for a deep dive
- I figured I was ready for some deep dives so I registered for the local regional competition, which meant I had to practice
- I got into the inflatable boat, and my girlfriend paddled us out to the line
- I did one dry static to 2'30" in the boat, doing a little bit of packing to stretch during the static
- Then I got into the water and connected my lanyard
- In 15C water I cannot relax; in 8C water I can relax because my body goes 'numb'; in 19C+ I can also relax because it is warmer; in 11-17C I can't relax
- I tried to relax for 1 minute, no success
- Then Pete started my 2 minute countdown (no warmup dives)
- To make the dive MUCH safer, I deliberately over-ventilated at the surface, to get rid of all the CO2, which almost eliminates the narcosis; this increases the risk of a samba/BO at the end of the dive, but makes the deep part much safer when diving with only a lanyard and safety freedivers
- The plan is to change the breathe-up to a much less aggressive breathe-up during the competition when there is deep water safety
- I felt a slight tingle in my fingers, which I would NEVER want in a competition; I knew with a tingle in my fingers before the dive, I was DRASTICALLY increasing my risk of a samba/BO, but it would reduce the narcosis; this is especially important when diving without a suit in cold water, since the extreme vasoconstriction drastically reduces the body's ability to store and buffer CO2; as a result, failure to breathe sufficiently before a no-suit dive in cold water can result in a blackout at the bottom from CO2 toxicity; all the more reason to hyperventilate before the dive

- At top time, I packed and started the dive
- I hit the first thermocline at about 3-4m
- I tried to sink at 17m but I was only moving at 0.5m/s according to the F1
- So I did some small kicks until 30m and then sank from 30m
- The last time I looked at the F1 was at 28m just before my mouthfill at 30m
- Once I had entered the 8C zone I became extremely relaxed because of my numb skin, and the descent was very fun and pleasant, although it was the longest descent ever 1'50" (previously it took me 1'35" to reach 88m in 2001)
- I was actually aiming for 70m but we screwed up the markers on the line
- It seemed to take a very long time to reach the light at the bottom; I'd say my terminal velocity was around 0.70 - 0.75 m/s
- On the ascent, I expected 57-60 strokes to get up from 70m
- I had very little narcosis due to the aggressive breathe-up
- I reached my first safety freediver at 30m and I was almost at 60 strokes
- Soon after, I counted 60 strokes, but the surface was still far and my legs were finally getting tired; I couldn't understand why it was taking so many strokes to get up from 70m
- Then I reached my 2nd safety freediver and by then I lost count of the strokes
- I could tell in the last 30m that I was super hypocapnic due to the deliberate aggressive breathe-up, and I expected a shake on the surface
- I got to the surface with a short shake (also my brain does not have tolerance to low oxygen due to the lack of apnea training)

I checked the F1 and saw 80.5m, ten more meters than we had planned. However, I think it would have been a much better/easier dive with less breathing before hand. Regardless, I was only going to announce 72m for the competition.

Anyway, considering I hadn't done any dive-specific training or any deep dives since last summer I was pretty happy.

I was using a mask and weight belt to simulate the competition, because the new AIDA rules are not yet in effect.

Last summer (August/September) I was doing so much apnea hiking that my recreational dives were over 3'00" (around 20m, while actively swimming). Since then I have lost that 'apnea-exercise' fitness. In the last 3 weeks my recreational dives have only been max 2'00" (also at 20m while swimming). This shows I am in crappy apnea shape compared to last summer/fall.

[Alun]

thanks for the info

wow...

going from a few shallow dives to 80m (or even 70m as you planned) takes some balls! i'm amazed you got your rope depth markings so spectacularly wrong. i bet you won't make that mistake again!

despite your small samba this for me is one of the most impressive CW performances i've ever heard of. well done. keep us posted with your progress.

[Fondueset]

Eric - what type of Qigong are you doing? In fact I'd be interested in your complete regime if you've the inclination. PM if you want.

-nice work!

[hteas]

Eric,
You mention CO2 and narcosis. Are you really relating them? I am asking, because Keller and Buhlmann claimed that Keller was able to down in his diving barrel to 400 ft breathing either 5% or 10% oxygen (depending on whose story), and the rest nitrogen. Nobody since has explored tha possiblilty that it is the CO2 that causes the narcosis. Any thoughts.
Have you tried a dive skin to help with the cold? A skin shouldn't increase the buoyancy the way neoprene does.
Howard Teas

[Jon]

Co2 can intensify narcosis, and cause deepwater blackout in scuba divers. It's the reason everyone used to be so high on "high flow" regualtors- so it would reduce C02 build up on deep air dives. Trimix allows you to use a cheap regulator and still breath easy because of the smaller size of the He atom vs. N2.

I can't imagine anyone using a 10% 02/ 90 %N2 mix at 400' since it would make you loopy as hell at 20'. They we're playing around with helium and hydrogn back then- Max Knoll was making 437' Helium dives in Lake Michigan back in the 30's.

Eric, I have some questions about you inhale dives with lack of narcosis. I know from years of deep air diving that I can "feel" fine with proper breathing, warm drysuit, high flow regulator, and a scooter to drag my butt around, but that doesn't mean I wasn't narked at the time. I used to think I was fine until I did some heliotrox dives on a simple 75' wreck, that I must have over 500 dives on, and saw a lot more details than I ever realized- and thus the reason why we use 100' EAD's on our trimix dives.

I can understand the idea of no narcosis on an exhale dive, but an inhale dive?
It goes against everything I've ever heard of when talking to hyperbaric doc's about this. I'm wondering if your dealing more with a conditioned response under stress rather than real avoidance of narcosis?

Jon

[laminar]

Hi Alun,

I was the one who effed up the measurements. It had been so long since we'd done a deep dive with the line we've always used. Usually, I'm the one who sets up the line on shore, checks the markings, etc...Instead, I spent the time teaching my sweetie (Jill) the basics of constant weight on a different line. She made a nice new pb of 22.6 metres. But now I've got to show her how to do the same depth with frenzel (which she can do on land already) so she doesn't get squeezed or hurt her ears. Anyway, I went from teaching her to spotting Eric. As I let down the line from the float, I counted 7 line markings for 70 metres. Only 7 markings actually means 80 metres.

Fortunately, this dumb mistake was not distrastrous, although I was surprised to see Mr. Reliable to have trouble recovering on the surface after a 70m dive . Usually, his LMC dives are few and far between, plus most of the time his tolerance for low O2 is very high, so if he does LMC, I never see it.

I met Eric at 30m and noted that he was looking a little urgent in the last 20m. He stopped kicking briefly at 10m and then kicked the rest of the way up without stopping.

Spotting someone who is diving without a suit is an odd experience because it is so rare to see anyone kicking up from depth with only a speedo on. But it really is an amazing way to dive. I will never compete again with a suit if I can help it.

At 15C, the water is actually too warm on the surface to properly vasoconstrict. You just get cold slowly. It is a lot harder to relax. I usually do a hang below the first significant thermocline to get "puckered up." Then I am able to relax on the surface. This was the first time that Eric tried diving without that first step on a deep dive, I think. If there had been a sharp thermocline along the way, say 12C down to 6C, then it would have been a lot more difficult to relax on the way down. That is what happens in summer here: 20C on the surface and 8C at the bottom, even 6C in some places. Ouch!

Diving with no warm up would really be the only way to do an under the ice dive without a suit. I think you'd have to have some sort of non-compressible neoprene cap on to eliminate brain freeze and ear pain for cold water entering the ear canal. In 1C water you would vasconstrict instantly with great pain, I imagine, and then you'd have less than a minute or so to relax and begin the dive. But I believe it could be done. If Lynn Cox can swim one mile in the Antarctic, then one of us could do deep dive under ice. As long as there is a warm ice hut next to the hole!

Pete

[Alun]

we have a type of roman numeral marking system for our rope which makes mistakes pretty much impossible. one blue stripe is 10m, one black is 50m. one black and three blue is 80m. etc yellows mark the 5's inbetween and white markings for every metre.

i quite fancy trying no-suit diving again sometime, but we don't have a boat and i would need to swim out 100m to the deep area, so it might be difficult right now.

[laminar]

I like that system alun. I'll talk to the boss about putting it into effect.

Yeah, swimming the 100m on the way back can kill you if you're too cold (afterdrop)

Pete