Thoughts on dynamics - efficient speed and training intensity

[Mullins]

I'm looking for a bit of feedback about certain aspects of dynamic training - or maybe just to start a rowdy discussion about what's best when nobody really knows....

Here's the routine I've been using for a while now (exact distances are dictated by the length of the pool, either 25m or 33m). I'm using a WW model 1 medium stiffness mono and 7.5kg of lead (which, along with contractions, is killing my back).

Average 3 sessions per week. Numbers vary a bit (as shown) depending on how I'm feeling.

Stretching (when I want to feel virtuous)
Warmup: 3x66m or 3x75m
2-6x100m with about 4 min rest between swims.
5-10x66m or 5-10x75m at what seems to be my most efficient pace, about 50s per 66m.
5-10x66m or 5-10x75m fast (about 40s per 66m)

All of this is done in apnea, no short swims (at least not by my standards, some might beg to differ) and no snorkelling.

In particular, my questions are:

1) Speed - I'm having difficulty settling on an efficient speed. From very fast to very slow, I seem to feel about the same at the end of a 100m swim. In fact, going very slowly with a tight streamline (which feels like it should stress my shoulders too much) felt slightly easier but my training partner noted I came up quite blue when I did this. Nice rosy pink colour when going faster (or so I'm told) Could just have been having a bad day, I guess.

Generally it takes me about 1:20 to do 100m; this sounds faster than average, from what I hear (1m/sec being widely touted as the most efficient speed for monofinners).

2) Intensity - there seems to be a school of thought that encourages people to do lots of easy dynamics and surface swimming to improve technique (fair enough) and to improve 'fitness' (here's where I tend to disagree). I would have thought that spending as much time as possible in the 'discomfort' zone would promote a type of fitness more appropriate to long dives (ie lactic acid tolerance, hypoxic tolerance etc). And that training fast would condition the muscles to heavy loads under hypoxic conditions.

Any thoughts?

[jome]

Originally Posted by Mullins

Generally it takes me about 1:20 to do 100m; this sounds faster than average, from what I hear (1m/sec being widely touted as the most efficient speed for monofinners).

That does not sound too fast. In General, monofinners swim quicker than bi-finners. Strong "anaerobic" types swim faster and lean, "endurance sports" types swim slower. From what you're describing, you would be in group a, a fast swimmer.

I think Stig and Peter cover 200m in around 2 minutes! They would be the prime examples of the "fast school".

2) Intensity - there seems to be a school of thought that encourages people to do lots of easy dynamics and surface swimming to improve technique (fair enough) and to improve 'fitness' (here's where I tend to disagree). I would have thought that spending as much time as possible in the 'discomfort' zone would promote a type of fitness more appropriate to long dives (ie lactic acid tolerance, hypoxic tolerance etc). And that training fast would condition the muscles to heavy loads under hypoxic conditions.

Again, totally individual. If your technique is perfect or at least very good and you are in good general fitness, then I'd say surface swimming would be next to useless?

If you're someone (like me), who does not have a strong background in sports, it is very effective to simply learn technique and improve the generally areobic and anaerobic fitness, as well as the right muscle groups.

Naturally for someone reasonably athletic you will propably get best results by doing apnea swimming. It does not always have to be to the max, but just to let the body get used to working extended periods in anaerobic with minimal oxygen debt.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Mullins

5-10x66m or 5-10x75m at what seems to be my most efficient pace, about 50s per 66m.

I usualy do 75m in 56-58s. Thats exactly the same pace. I use bi-fins though, but in dolphin kick.

But I should really do more 75m swims per session to finally break the 100m :-/. For me 75m arn't really a big deal but still some kind of barrier.

[naiad]

Originally Posted by Mullins

Speed - I'm having difficulty settling on an efficient speed. From very fast to very slow, I seem to feel about the same at the end of a 100m swim. In fact, going very slowly with a tight streamline (which feels like it should stress my shoulders too much) felt slightly easier but my training partner noted I came up quite blue when I did this. Nice rosy pink colour when going faster (or so I'm told) Could just have been having a bad day, I guess.

I am going to experiment with this soon. For me, going fast works best with fins. My PB of 44m was done as fast as possible, at least for the second half. Without fins, a medium to fast speed works best. If I try to go very fast, the excessive number of strokes and amount of energy used will limit my distance. Going very slowly makes me lose momentum, so it feels inefficient, and the fact that it takes longer is a problem.

Lucia

[laminar]

I think it depends what you are trying to do:

1) Train for Max effort

2) Train for general apnea ability

If you want to train for a maximum effort, I would go with 3-5 reps at 95%-100% with lots of rest in between. No warm-up. With a buddy, of course.Then if you feel like it (your limbs should be noodles after this), do some cool-down lengths nice and slow.

If you want to train for general apnea ability, then lots of reps are probably good, with short recoveries, at about 75-85% of max. Even better would be to do it on a passive exhale (FRC).

Specificity is the key. If you want to train for maximum effort in dynamic, option one works well. But I would also spend a day or two a week, working on technique in easy distances (50m).

My 3 cents.

Pete

[naiad]

I find that a max dynamic is best with no warm-up, except maybe a few statics.

[Mullins]

Haven't tried that - might do a static warmup with a suit and try what pete/laminar suggested; fewer, longer dynamics, given that I'm training to do one max swim rather than for spearfishing (which can take care of itself as far as I'm concerned). Then maybe an easier technique session later in the week (given that my technique is far from perfect).

Ricochet: I have always had the same problem - I get to a certain distance, train for a while until it becomes easy, but still have difficulty making another turn. I just get comfortable I guess, and don't like the idea of another whole length ahead of me (not that I'd necessarily have to do the whole length, but it generally turns out that way).

Speed is a funny one - I guess the best way to find out what works best is to do max dynamics at various speeds and see what gets you furthest. Easier said than done though, given that you might have to train for a while at a certain speed to do it justice in the test. And then there is the kick and glide a la Ant Williams, which has never seemed to work for me.

[harbour seal]

hello good folks of db,

i came across this thread and couldn't help bumping it for posterity's sake. dave mullin's much celebrated 244m record swim was a shot heard around the freediving community---a paradigm shifting moment to be sure. i would hazard to say his training methodology was somewhat effective , given his incredible results less than two years later from the date of this thread .

i love the fact that the db community includes such a wide variety of members, from relative novice like myself, to elite-level athletes, to wise and grizzled veterans and even a voluptuous mermaid or two (yes, i mean you 'sands'), all of whom make this such an enjoyable place to be.

in case anyone missed it:

YouTube - Dave Mullins 244m DYN

another db fan,
sean

[Mullins]

Originally Posted by Mullins

And then there is the kick and glide a la Ant Williams, which has never seemed to work for me.

Hmm.

It's easy to forget where you pick up ideas from, nice to be reminded. I pretty much learned to freedive on deeperblue

[harbour seal]

lol, nice!

"If I have [swimmed] further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton...'er Mullins

what did we do before the internet?

cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada

[chrismar]

at 6'7", I want to stand on Dave's shoulders! Mind you, Ant isn't short either...

[laminar]

And sometimes you have to learn old lessons long forgotten all over again. And other times, you find out that everyone is right, to some extent.

I've been training again after a long hiatus and it's been really fun and interesting.

Also nice to see Kathtryn McPhee's amazing string of national records... I think we'll see a no fins constant weight record from her eventyually!

[picasso]

Originally Posted by Mullins

2) Intensity - there seems to be a school of thought that encourages people to do lots of easy dynamics and surface swimming to improve technique (fair enough) and to improve 'fitness' (here's where I tend to disagree). I would have thought that spending as much time as possible in the 'discomfort' zone would promote a type of fitness more appropriate to long dives (ie lactic acid tolerance, hypoxic tolerance etc). And that training fast would condition the muscles to heavy loads under hypoxic conditions.

Any thoughts?

I would realy like to know whether Dave and other guys still asume that longer dives in 'discomfort' zone are more appropriate for MAXs preparation. We usually do dive at about 95%-100% for the beginning and then do some sorter one more times.

I would swim faster If I would be more trained, but my condition doesn't allow too fast speed otherwise my legs become very painfull and refuse to work after let say 125m.