Under Water Confidence Training

[Retrion]

hey nostres. where is the post about being motionless?

[covert]

dfried good to see your underwater experience is getting better.

4. Never blow air during a breathold.
.
5 like mentioned above tools are useless. Packing is an option but i would recommend normal 02 and co2 tables, on this site somewhere there is a link to a great little program that will help you with that. I can mail it to you too.

6. I prefer not to swallow, but that too is a "unnatural behavior" and needs to be trained. Till your comfortable with it. Since allot of people actually swallow air during breathold your actually wasting oxygen. But if you feel comfortable and relaxed holding your breath and swallowing i guess like effatah said it decreases the urge to breath which will relax you and make up for any loss of oxygen.

I think its all about the ability to be completely relaxed while submersed no matter what the circumstances. IE tying knots, being tied up etc. Stay calm, think clearly, concentrate, and always keep safety as your number one priority.

No point in keeping your breath so long that you never need to breath again.

so i pretty much just plaguered effatah but what the hell its fun

[dfriedman]

Gents,

I talked to my instructor today and supposedly when holding your breath there is significant CO2 build-up that can be release through the mouth by blowing out a significantly small amout of air ( like a very small puff ). What are your thoughts about that?

Secondly, what is this scientific/medical explaination that wet just produced? Bottom line--does he agree or not when it come to swallowing in the water during dynamic apnea.

Lastly, after our water session most of us have headaches. I'm assuming that doing our water con events are causing this. Right??? How can we prevent this?

FN

[trux]

Originally Posted by dfriedman

I talked to my instructor today and supposedly when holding your breath there is significant CO2 build-up that can be release through the mouth by blowing out a significantly small amout of air ( like a very small puff ). What are your thoughts about that?

I am afraid he is not right. The absolute volume of CO2 in your lungs plays absolutely no role. It is the concentration of CO2, better told the PaCO2 (partial pressure of CO2) that is important, and that will not change at all by releasing some air, unless your instructor teaches you how to blow out only CO2, but keeping O2 (and N2) inside Releasing some air helps only psychologically. The excess CO2 pushes the body to exhale, so if you do it partially, you cheat the urge for a moment. On the other hand you only aggravate the hypoxia, because you exhale oxygen too, and you may fool so yourself into a quicker blackout.

Originally Posted by dfriedman

Secondly, what is this scientific/medical explanation that wet just produced?

He tells swallowing activates tachycardia (faster heart rate)

Originally Posted by dfriedman

Bottom line--does he agree or not when it come to swallowing in the water during dynamic apnea.

Like Eric and Wet told, it may have both negative and positive effects, but I'd tell if you have an urge to swallow, then do not fight it and swallow. If you do not have any, do not do it. Listen to your body and don't stress you with such unimportant details - the tension may have worse impact on your apnea than the swallowing.

Originally Posted by dfriedman

Lastly, after our water session most of us have headaches. I'm assuming that doing our water con events are causing this. Right??? How can we prevent this?

Again, most of questions you ask were discussed many times here, so you should definitely take your time and search the archive to get into the picture. Check out for example this thread:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general...-freedive.html
or simply enter headache into the search box in the menu above.

[wet]

I agree with Trux regarding the swallow, I'd think it is not significant in your case, where other stressors (untieing knots, harassment, etc.) are involved.

I mentioned it because the divers reflex slows the heart rate which conserves oxygen , and apparently swallowing (momentarily) raises the heart rate, though probably only a very small amount.

DDeden

[Retrion]

I am with you guys on this one. Swallowing only raises your heart rate and makes you think it helps. I actually swallow about twice when i do STA. but with this idea i'm going to try it without swallowing and get back to you guys if there was an improvement with my time. How do you guys suggest calming down while doing these demanding underwater tasks such as untying knots?

-Ret

[trux]

Well, moderate level of stress is actually beneficial because it helps to kick in the diving reflex (DR). Only high levels of stress are not too good, because high stress hormones like adrenaline do not act in the right way and may suppress the DR. Adrenaline has vasoconstrictive effect, but unlike what is needed at DR (constriction of extremities, dilatation in core and brain supply arteries), it dilates arteries in limbs, and additionally it has strong activation effects (increased heart rate, metabolism, neuronal activity).

So if you are in some stress underwater because of some harassment or tasks, it is in fact not too bad at all - rather the opposite, as long as you avoid the total panic. When you have to execute physical task, try doing it slowly and with as little movements and power as possible, to avoid oxygen consumption.

[dfriedman]

TRUX, COVERT, and Wet...thanks a whole lot.

Today was probably the best water confidence day for the whole team. We literally made every mistake under the water and we were patient enough to fix the problem and accomplish the task.
During my knot tying--my mask flooded and I couldn't see anything...I had to clear it and it took me a couple of tries (because my seal was bad and the straps were too loose from harrassment). Finally I realised I didn't have much O2 left...so I blindly tied my knots on the rope. I was down there for a long time. I had an instructor right in my face seeing if I was going to give up or freak out. No way--I think the psychological effect was huge. I talked to myself the whole time...If I fail a task I have to do it again--No way am I doing anything twice!!!

Thanks guys!

FN

[Paul Kotik]

Originally Posted by wet

Eric, about swallowing, I agree, but note #6 below, perhaps the tachycardia reflex from occasional swallowing is not significant:

Reflex bradycardia occurring in response to diving, nasopharyngeal
stimulation and ocular pressure, and its modification by respiration
and swallowing.
Gandevia SC, McCloskey DI, Potter EK.

1. Digital pressure applied to the eyes evokes reflex bradycardia in
human subjects and anaesthetized dogs. The bradycardia is most
pronounced when breathing stops. 3. Oculo-cardiac reflex bradycardia
in the dog is reduced by central neural inspiratory activity and by
the excitation of pulmonary afferents by inflation of the lungs. In
human subjects it is reduced when inspiratory efforts are made against
a closed glottis. 4. Nasopharyngeal stimulation with water evokes
reflex bradycardia in the anaesthetized dog. This bradycardia is
reduced by central neural inspiratory activity and by the excitation
of pulmonary afferents by inflation of the lungs. 5. Bradycardia
occurs in normal human subjects during immersion of the face in water
('diving'). This bradycardia is reduced when inspiratory efforts are
made against a closed glottis. 6. SWALLOWING evokes transient
tachycardia in human subjects. During diving or the application of
ocular pressure, swallowing reduces the reflex bradycardia which these
evoke.

DDeden

DFriedman, please contact me directly a paul.kotik@deeperblue.net

I've had experience coaching special operators, candidates and other military people in this stuff, and can put you in direct contact with people who are at the top of the freediving game and have had much experience prepping military folks for BUDS, Army SOF, etc.

[nostres]

Right here Retrion
http://forums.deeperblue.net/hunting...ttom-time.html #7

I was completely motionless for around 8 minutes, then three deeper breaths and I simply hit my PB of 5:03, quite a jump from 4:30

I did it again today. It's a great feeling because after couple minutes it feels like my arms and legs weight a tone and suddenly I don't feel my body anymore. Then I imagine I go down in the ocean in this position (lying flat) I see blue above me becomes darker and the deeper I go the better (less) I feel. I also think then that everything is perfect and there is nothing to worry. Then alarm clock beeps and I start static.
Try it So easy

[DeepThought]

Originally Posted by wet

1. Digital pressure applied to the eyes evokes reflex bradycardia in human subjects and anaesthetized dogs.

David, what does this mean? One can "press" his eyes to evoke bradycardia?
Hydrostatic pressure should not have any direct affect on the eyes... would it work also with negative pressure (mask squeeze)?

[wet]

Originally Posted by DeepThought

David, what does this mean? One can "press" his eyes to evoke bradycardia?
Hydrostatic pressure should not have any direct affect on the eyes... would it work also with negative pressure (mask squeeze)?

Deep thought,
Perhaps I should have trimmed that, as it isn't relevant to swallowing. I've seen it written in other studies, but I'm not certain exactly how it works, apparently dogs react with bradycardia during ocular pressure, but the abstract didn't say humans do. I don't advocate pressing the eyeballs for any reason, as that could cause damage. The ocular pressure info. above is about dogs only, their "wiring" is a bit different than in humans. PS: Maybe check with SanderP, note the dog w/ goggles avatar, maybe some expertise there?
DDeden

[DeepThought]

No worries, I don't need magic tricks to dive better. It was a scientific curiousity.
Now where can I find a dog this time o' day...

[dfriedman]

TRUX...I read the link you provided about the headaches.

Our headaches are lasting all night and sometimes I wake up with one. They seem to go away once our morning PT starts. As far as "hydration is concerned--we drink at least 2 gallons of mixed gatorade a day. I know that all the dynamic apnea training is causing it ( I believe), but there has to be something we can do to prevent it. Or do we have to suck it up until our bodies get used to O2 deprivation?

FN

[JPPLAY]

dfriedman sent me this pm and asked me to answer on the thread:

Originally Posted by dfriedman;

Thanks so much for your advice. The work outs are going well, but I don't understand what a "breath up" is? I have heard it many times and I'm assuming this "breath-up" helps you hold your breath more than without one. Can you explain your breath ups for this workout you gave me:

"Or 25m dive sprints with 15 - 45 sek breath ups (i do max 20 sek) do 15 sprints."

Be specific...I need a a breath up for 3 min's, 1 min, & 30 sec's (for certain events).

I understand you go under the water for 25m and swim right back (total of 50m) and then rest (breath up)? That's what we do. Or do you just go 25m and then rest by using breath up?).

A breathup is where we use certain techniques like slow long breaths to slow the heartrate and flush out excess CO2. Do not use hyperventilation as this only lowers the urge to breath not giving you more time on the bottom. It killed enough divers as is.
All I use for a breathup is slow breathing around 6-8 breaths per minute. The workout was for 25 meters not 50 meters underwater but it doesn't really matter. The idea is not the length you go under but how much time you need between lengths. The goal of the workout is to lower that time making it so you can do more dives in a shorter length of time.