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Freediving Death...

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I’m not too experienced as I should be, I’ve only been spearfishing for 6 months ………..BUT the more I read about Spearfishing & Death….the more it sounds like a war zone and not a sport.

From my point of view and the way I’ve been spearfishing, is to get a long range gun (3 to 5 meters minimum), snorkel and hunt fish from the top.
Dive only to retrieve your spear from a reef ….and very briefly…if it is really stuck…take your time, come out of the water for more air and dive again only when ready.

I’ve caught reasonable size fish…offshore that is….enjoyed every minute of it and don’t have a dive buddy.

I may be missing something ….. but I’m not sure how I can die doing what I do……diving at +8 m for a fish is not worth all these precautions, regulations, laws, techniques…….etc., ….. and what have you.

If it is going to be deep…then you are better of scuba diving but that’s another story.

Again, I’m not experienced enough but sane enough to avoid……1) testing my limits in water….2) must have an experienced buddy to monitor my every move……. and a whole list of things I cannot remember anymore…………Just enjoy it and don’t worry about how deep you can dive…..!
 
ihab said:
I’m not too experienced as I should be, I’ve only been spearfishing for 6 months ………..BUT the more I read about Spearfishing & Death….the more it sounds like a war zone and not a sport.

From my point of view and the way I’ve been spearfishing, is to get a long range gun (3 to 5 meters minimum), snorkel and hunt fish from the top.
Dive only to retrieve your spear from a reef ….and very briefly…if it is really stuck…take your time, come out of the water for more air and dive again only when ready.

I’ve caught reasonable size fish…offshore that is….enjoyed every minute of it and don’t have a dive buddy.

I may be missing something ….. but I’m not sure how I can die doing what I do……diving at +8 m for a fish is not worth all these precautions, regulations, laws, techniques…….etc., ….. and what have you.

If it is going to be deep…then you are better of scuba diving but that’s another story.

Again, I’m not experienced enough but sane enough to avoid……1) testing my limits in water….2) must have an experienced buddy to monitor my every move……. and a whole list of things I cannot remember anymore…………Just enjoy it and don’t worry about how deep you can dive…..!

Sounds just like what several divers I used to know said before they drowned.
 
My college roommate at the University of Florida who was a student instructor with me in the UFADP (University of Florida Acedemic Diving Program) drowned in the pool of our apartment complex.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE WHAT COULD HAPPEN!!!

Paul, next time you see Tec Clark ask him if he remembers the incident about Scott holding his breath at the bottom of a pool, .....alone, .....with a weight belt on.

Jim
 
trux said:
When breathing up, Important is not to change the balance you are used to - hyperventilating (breathing up too fast and/or too deep) will decrease CO2 and delay the signal high CO2 level sends to your brain; while hypo-ventilating (too short, slow and shallow breath-up) will deplete the O2 stock in blood and body tissue, and the high CO2 level can apparently lead to a blackout in depth too.
That's true. If you are used to something, be very careful about changing it. Of course, do try new things, but tell your buddy and do a little at a time. Almost all the blackouts and sambas I have had, both in the pool and dry, have been because of doing something I am not used to, and not necessarily a very long time.
 
Paul Kotik said:
Sounds just like what several divers I used to know said before they drowned.

Paul:

Please explain how you can drown while snorkling....That would be quite interesting
 
Naiad's point about be careful trying something new and Marwan's story of the experianced spearo who never had a BO until his freediving course fit together pretty well. A friend of mine, longtime, go-for-broke spearo, comfortable diving 50-60 fit, never had a BO until he tried a 120 ft dive in his PFI class, the video was impressive.

I strongly suspect that the sum of all the improved techniques that we learn in courses (and on DB) leading to greatly improved performance, adds considerably to the risk we take freediving and and makes having an educated buddy all the more important.

Connor
 
Spearfishing national and international competitions are individual. It is forbidden (and severely penalized) for other competitors to approach the site where another one is hunting. Members of the same national team are separated to prevent one of them to help or spot preys for another. Although I know of very few "accidents", they do happen. A friend of mine died, and another retired from competitions after suffering several sambas.
 
I should add: after the death of Gene Higa in the U.S. Nationals in Hawaii (July 04), Bill Ernst, then director of USA (Underwater Society of America) was quoted in the press as saying that the organization was going to consider abandoning the individual competition in favor of the two-person team, with only one diving at a time. But, as far as I know, it was not done.
 
Gillz said:
Hey evevryone...
Im 15 and new to freediving and I was just curious, what are the chances of death or having a blackout when freediving? Is it a common occurance? What can be done to prevent it?

Gillz

This is my first posting to the Deeper Blue forum. Like our new friend above I'm new to freediving but have been a recreational snorkeler for many years. To be honest I had never heard of shallow water blackout (SWB) until I started reading Deeper Blue.

From what I understand, it seems that intermediate to advanced freedivers are in the greatest danger. Beginners typically lack the means, methods, adaptations, and most crucially the "confidence" to achieve any depth.

For years I used scuba fins, no weight belt, did zero apnea training, and had only a crude proficiency with equalization - I believe all this kept me safe. I've now acquired long-blade fins, a weight belt, low volume mask, and am doing apnea training every day. Ironically I'm now in much more danger.

In my first training session (on my couch) it was very painful to hold my breath for one minute; I can now hold for three minutes. In terms of progress this is exciting for me, but I'm beginning to think this might just be foolish. Your body sends you these signals for good reason.

I'll defer to the experts on the true effects of apnea training - whether it is actual systemic adaptation, or just learning to cope with discomfort. A larger moral question arises of why would you perform any exercise that dulls your body's most primary survival instinct? Should we encourage or celebrate ever-increasing apnea times?

I wish my first posting would have been less controversial but welcome any corrections or contrary views.

By the way I've enrolled in one of PFI's courses in the new year and won't be doing any freediving or snorkeling until then.

-Gary James
 
GCJ said:
This is my first posting to the Deeper Blue forum. Like our new friend above I'm new to freediving but have been a recreational snorkeler for many years. To be honest I had never heard of shallow water blackout (SWB) until I started reading Deeper Blue.

From what I understand, it seems that intermediate to advanced freedivers are in the greatest danger. Beginners typically lack the means, methods, adaptations, and most crucially the "confidence" to achieve any depth.

For years I used scuba fins, no weight belt, did zero apnea training, and had only a crude proficiency with equalization - I believe all this kept me safe. I've now acquired long-blade fins, a weight belt, low volume mask, and am doing apnea training every day. Ironically I'm now in much more danger.

In my first training session (on my couch) it was very painful to hold my breath for one minute; I can now hold for three minutes. In terms of progress this is exciting for me, but I'm beginning to think this might just be foolish. Your body sends you these signals for good reason.

I'll defer to the experts on the true effects of apnea training - whether it is actual systemic adaptation, or just learning to cope with discomfort. A larger moral question arises of why would you perform any exercise that dulls your body's most primary survival instinct? Should we encourage or celebrate ever-increasing apnea times?

I wish my first posting would have been less controversial but welcome any corrections or contrary views.

By the way I've enrolled in one of PFI's courses in the new year and won't be doing any freediving or snorkeling until then.

-Gary James


I'm very limited when it comes to experience and maybe I should not be writting this....but I totaly agree with you....the more experience..the more confidence hence more depth & deaths.....I don't see the point of diving to exceed limits...occasional diving ( 1 to 2 m) for seconds comes natural....push it and you open doors to probelms.

I've noticed it's always the experienced guys that are at risk....the stories of death are usually of those very experinced...so what's the point of trying to hold your breath for 2 to 3 minutes....then to die trying...for what exactly.

Just dive at your will without pushing any limits and rememebr we are not fish
 
This conversation has taken an odd turn. Let me just make a few points.
Snorkelers do drown.
You can get SWB in 8 meters or less.
Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to freediving.

I understand the argument that the more you learn to push your limits and will yourself beyond the urge to breathe the greater the danger - there is obvious truth to that. Particularly if you are operating from a highly driven perspective or otherwise lack judgement. But the implication that remaining ignorant is protective is clearly erroneous. The greater one's knowlege and ability, the greater the responsibility for sure - that's when intelligence, moderation and self control come into play. If you do not want to learn these things that is your choice.

On the subject of adaptation. I normally dive in a location about 5 minutes from my house. To get to even 12 meters of depth I have to swim out about 400 meters in a bay that is heavily trafficked with recreational boaters. (in the winter I pretty much own the bay - but it's a freakin long cold swim!) So, for me, 10 meters feels deep. Last summer in BC we dove rock walls that went down over 30 meters or so. Using one of Eric's F1's I noticed all my dives would bottom out at about 10 meters. I made no attempt to push past this but by the end of 4 days I was diving 15 meters and it felt just the same. Without any intention to push, I also observed and began to emulate the surface methodology these more experienced divers employed. This has definitely made diving even more enjoyable.
 
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ihab said:
Paul:

Please explain how you can drown while snorkling....That would be quite interesting

This isn't a serious question. I'll leave it to the souls of the unnumerable people who have drowned snorkelling, taking baths and eating soup to answer it for you, when you make their acquaintance. I'm done here. Good luck.
 
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To add to Fondueset's comments,

There is an obvious tendency for more experianced divers to run into more trouble, but it's not nearly a hard rule. Several DBers have reported BOs and sambas very very early in their training. I would not have thought it possible, but, at minimum, there appears to be a wide range of susceptability to problems that is impossible to predict. So, be careful.

On adaptation vs discomfort tolerence, its both. Training helps you ignore symptoms that would otherwise drive you to the surface. Practice brings physiological adaptation. For example, diaphram stretchs can considerably increase the depth to which you can comfortably clear. I can't prove it is related, but it is definately coincidental that my hemaglobin, rbc count and hermatacrit have all gone up near the top of the normal range during the time I have practiced apnea several times a week.

Connor
 
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GCJ said:
This is my first posting to the Deeper Blue forum. Like our new friend above I'm new to freediving but have been a recreational snorkeler for many years. To be honest I had never heard of shallow water blackout (SWB) until I started reading Deeper Blue.
I wish my first posting would have been less controversial but welcome any corrections or contrary views.
-Gary James
Well Gary I think for your first post it was a very good one. You will soon discover that on DB it is not unusual to have conflicting views! The beauty of an open forum is anyone can voice thier opinions & once the thread has run its course we all benefit from some excellent reading.
I have been freediving for 35 years, I am not a deep diver but must of spent a few months under water by now! I new nothing about SWB when I began spearfishing all those years ago & to be honest like yourself was surprised how much info DB has on the subject. Maybe I have been lucky but I have never suffered a SWB? Its those dam windsurfers that worry me! I have a 3' long float with a flag & still they whizz passed at 30 knots only feet away sometimes.:vangry
 
Here it's illegal to come within 200 feet of a diver's flag. Not that it doesn't get ignored but we seem to have pretty good enforcement. I have very few close encounters - Kayakers being the worst.
 
Yes, I agree - boats are probably much worse threat than anything else. I wonder sometimes if using the float does not make it actually worse. Some idiots seem to be attracted by it. My friend got pulled and towed away by a small sailboat whose pilot went to look at the float, turned around it and caught the diver's float line with the keel fin. A darn moment he did not even notice that he tows a diver behind him.

I do still mostly dive with the float, but sometimes I wonder if I'd not be safer without it. This summer, there was even a group of swimmers who attempted to steal my float. Not noticing that I am attached to it below, they grabbed it and started to swim away.

I had the same experience with the close passing boats, so in the last time, I always keep the float right above me by tightening up the line, and surface directly under/at the float (climbing the line like in FIM). Not that it helps when there is an idiot running over it, but I hope the chance is lower, especially if I construct a little bit more rigid one. Something like I collaged below (I believe someone already suggested it here on DB):

mine_float.jpg




 
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GCJ said:
I'll defer to the experts on the true effects of apnea training - whether it is actual systemic adaptation, or just learning to cope with discomfort. A larger moral question arises of why would you perform any exercise that dulls your body's most primary survival instinct? Should we encourage or celebrate ever-increasing apnea times?

I wish my first posting would have been less controversial but welcome any corrections or contrary views.
Nothing like a good debate. :D

There is a definite physical adaptation - I can now do a lot more than I could when I started, and it isn't just coping with discomfort, though there is some of that too.

It is a bit scary though - I have made the decision that I do want to push the limits, but I fully understand why someone might not want to.

Lucia
 
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I've come to the conclusion that the relationship between pushing, and an actual increase in ability is a bit more complex than one might first imagine


(Aye, Trux; Nothing like a brace of claymoors to align the nautical riff-raff)
 
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I think that withholding information and expertise is an excellent way to kill new spearos and freedivers.

I do pretty much the same spearfishing depths/times that I did before I started apnea training. However my max dynamic swim is now 300% of what it was, which I would have to assume has given me a larger safety-margin.
 
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