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Freediving Death...

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Fondueset said:
I think part of the safety factor comes from motivation - that is; Why do you dive?

That is usually the first thing I ask students, after getting their names etc. I don't think there are wrong or right reasons. But certainly there are safer and less safe reasons. I think it is important to be honest to at least your self about the motivation.

For example, I have never heard of anyone publicly admitting that just pure narsisicm is part of their motivation. Yet it is present every time I see freedivers interact for example with scuba divers...:) So yeah, let me be the first. I do get some satisfaction from seeing the horror in someones face when I tell them I regularily hold my breath over 7 minutes. I know I shouldn't, but damn it, I do...

Of course it is not my sole motivation, but certainly a component.

What has this to do with safety? Well, after having recognised that, I can now look inside my self if I feel compelled to pose for scubies for 7 minutes. Is that really safe? Is it really necessary?

Well, you get the idea...

The same analysis for other motives is useful as well...(I dive to find my limit -> what do you do when you find it? Etc etc...)

Ok, time for my medication again, this is starting to get out of hand :)
 
I have to admit it is cool to show off. :)

One of my motives is that it is one of the few things I can do. I am not a sporty person, and I don't have the space, energy or money to do any of the other things I would like to do. (But even if I did, I would still be freediving. :))

I like to find out what is possible. Sometimes I find out the hard way what isn't possible, but then I take a step back and try something different. It usually works better. :)

I do also like to sometimes just do shorter statics and dynamics, not pushing myself too much.

I would like to dive outdoors and see fish and things, but that seems less likely now because I am just too tired coping with everyday life to even think of more activities. Maybe when I have finished studying I will get a part-time job so there is more time for things like that. I hope so.
 
Since we're confessing: This summer while I was diving along the pipeline some scubies showed up. I did indeed lounge around down there - sitting with my back against a big pipe like I was at the movies - watching them cruise by - looking back over their shoulders for as long as they remained in site.
 
Confessions: Spotting a trail of bubbles in deep water. Settling on the bottom in front of scuba divers just out of sight but in their path. Watching their reactions as they stumble upon me. rofl rofl

Why don't we start brainstorming ideas for a solo diver or if you don't like that term, the "be responsible for your own safety" safety protocol.

1. Get to know your own breathing reflex

2. Identify your "anxiety zone" (ie. the depth or time that makes you feel anxious about your safety) We could also put this in the context of "If your fin fell off or mask flooded or wetsuit ripped badly or leg cramped completely at X depth or after X minutes, do you feel that you could surface unassisted and be conscious?"

3. Experiment in controlled conditions with the sensations of overbreathing and underbreathing, focusing on the sensations of hypo/hypercapnia.

4. Identify surface and underwater safety hazards that can put you at risk

5. Lung squeeze and DCS

6. Minimum surface interval to recharge energy stores

7. Maximum bottom time and/or depth (how will the freediver determine this?)

8. Variations on diving method (packing, full inhale, FRC)

etc.... I'm just brainstorming here....

But my main idea here is that each diver needs to do some experimenting to figure out their own boundaries for safer diving. Ideally, with supervising to begin with, probably with more supervision that instructors are used to giving in a workshop or clinic.

Pete
 
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The other way to look at this is what habits should we recommend to people that are common to all freedivers:
These would be things that could be practiced over and over again in a workshop or on their own to instill good habits.

Some ideas:

1. Proper hook breath on every dive. Many novices black out or samba in competition, for example, for lack of a good first breath.

2. Proper lung volume /ballast/weighting to reduce descent/ascent effort

Others?

Pete
 
Sounds like a great idea Peter.

I'm thinking that a good limit on my depth might be to not dive deeper, with fin(s), than I can easily do on a CNF dive. Of course this means I would need to get a buddy and actually figure out what that depth is. ;)

As far as a breath-up goes for solo diving I use no purges or packing like I do when I am diving with a buddy.

I find the whole concept of FRC diving to be very interesting but there's no way I would ever want to try it without a buddy. Actually there are very few buddies I would even consider trying it with- except for maybe Fred. I would trust him with my life anytime.

Jon
 
I see that there's a bunch of us reading this thread right now so maybe we should all jump into the chat room?
 
Cdavis: "Eric and Laminar have raised the 64 million dollar question. I wish I had an answer. It is like sex, people are going to dive alone (me included) and without what is considered good safety protocols. I used to think being safe should be easy, just don't "push it". I pushed it for years and never had a problem except for a couple of vision sambas when I was a damn fool teenager and Really pushing it. Why shouldn't that do? However, after following DB for a while and reading more than a few reports of divers early in training having sambas and BOs and experianced divers having the same at times where they didn't think they were pushing the limits, I'm don't think "not pushing it" is enough. I suspect there is a wide individual and situational variation in suseptability to low 02 problems that will be next to impossible to predict." I totally agree with you. It is next to impossible to predict. The two persons I knew that died spearfishing were experienced but young, healthy, strong, at the top of their game. If only had they not been alone at that fatal moment!
And, Fondueset, I feel the same as you do in the water, although of course I can't express it so eloquently.
 
We ended up discussing elios, monofins, water conditions for the upcoming weekend, spearguns, average hunting depths, and Tlyer's CNF technique where he can do it wearing both wetsuit socks and gloves- which I would like to know more about.

Somehow we never got around to solo diving, except that when we are diving along with scuba divers we are still solo.

Still waiting to hear from Jome and Eric and what they do when diving solo?

Jon
 
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:waterwork .......and I missed it.

[Jim feeling left out]
 
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Ok Laminar, just some ideas.

If you are trying to develop a series of guidelines for solo diving, it would need to be a graduated series,very simple for the less serious and more detailed guides for more experianced divers. As possible examples for the really new guys, building on yours and other suggestions:

1 We probably know enough to specify surface intervals by depth, should be easy to specify and easy to teach. No watch needed if the intervals are expressed in percentages of dive time.


2. Some pretty detailed instructions on how to excessively hyperventilate and underbreath to show at least a minimun standard of what to avoid and what it feels like. This might be difficult to communicate properly.

3. Some dive limits (the hard part)

a. for most divers who get contractions, come up at the first one, or at t the first urge to breath.
b. dive no deeper than you can without fins.

Connor
 
That was fun. This is a great thread! I'm getting a warmer suit for the winter - with an ultra-groov-a-riffic paintjob.
 
cdavis said:
Ok Laminar, just some ideas.


1 We probably know enough to specify surface intervals by depth, should be easy to specify and easy to teach. No watch needed if the intervals are expressed in percentages of dive time.

Huh?

How can you measure surface interval, in percentage of dive time or any other way, without a watch?

That was one of the best things I found out when I got a D3. If I depended on how I felt before I dove again, I found that it was around 45 seconds. But even with my meagre dives times of a minute or so, I should have an interval of 1:30 or more, and I'd never be able to do that without the D3.
 
Actually, I try to avoid solo diving, and I teach that too. But I'm also not disillusioned that people will not do it just because I say so, so I would like to give them as much advice as I can. But at least when spearfishing, even if it is with a buddy, it's not really "buddying", ie. he is not actively watching me, so I'm under no illusion that he could actually do much else than retrieve a corpse.

So when I do that, I just dive with a huge safety margin. While fishing, I rarely go deeper than 8 meters and mostly it's even less then that ("anxiety zone" I would rate at around 30m). I pretty much come up after I get the first signs of the breathing reflex and have an alarm set at 1:45, after which I will go up even if there is amazing action just in front of me. I keep my surface intervals long (like Bill, without a watch I could not do it...I want to dive after about 30-45 sec recovery, but force my self not to). When surfacing, even from the easiest dive, I focus on good recover breaths (and always dive with the snorkel out of my mouth).

So for me the main thing is basically a huge margin, as objectively judged as possible (ie not how I feel, but what the watch tells me). I know, I know, it's not really freediving if you keep starting at the watch...But damn it, my body just does not tell me to come up after for example 2 minutes.

I would never do 99% max or even 80%...Hell, not even 60% of my max when alone. And I believe I DO know my limits rather well. This is what I meant by having a certain amount of experience and especially experience pushing your self. I know there are divers that do, very smart ones and ones that are still alive, but personally I would not trust my self enough.

So basically, my static result being a pretty constant 7+, I never do aspettos over 2 min (1:45+ascent). CW pb being 50 and "anxiety zone" 30, the deepest solo dive I've done would be around 15m...Etc etc. Dynamic PB 125m and over 3 minutes in dive time, I never push over a minute while swimming and diving in spearfishing...You get the idea. And the cool thing is, at least so far, I have been able to do anything I ever wanted and more. Get the fish, seen some amazing things, and so forth...

Fully aware that this does not make things all safe, but less dangerous at least...
 
It is very interesting to put stats up with our own personal comfort zones.

All my dives are now FRC:
(I've been diving for 6 years. Packing for 3 years, inhale only for 2, and FRC for 1.)

All the following are without contractions (I get distinct contractions) or even a intermediate urge to breathe.

Diving solo (really alone), I'd say my max depth is 30m for 1'45"-2'00" but that's only when I'm really feeling relaxed and not stressed, otherwise, it's more like 25m for 1'30-1'45". If it is an unfamiliar dive site, more like 15m for 1'20" (FRC). Being by myself, as it is not that common an occurence, just kind of creeps me out. I find that interesting, since really, the way Eric and I dive when we dive together, is really with 100% self-reliance. I attribute that feeling to leftovers from our competitive days when we would spot each other on deep dives and we actually had a much higher likelihood of assisting each other (as I did for Eric twice on a descent line). Old habits die hard.

When we are diving together but far enough apart or with bad visibility so that direct supervision is impossible and foolhardy, my anxiety level (depending on viz and surface conditions), is beyond 35m and 2'00". I rarely make a deep AND long dive. So 30m+ in less than 1'45" or less than 20m in more than 2'00" but never both.

Let me point out that these stats don't reflect an abstract protocol, but rather an evolution of my own diving comfort zone. Nor would I recommend it to anyone, especially since FRC takes a lot longer to get used to.

I think Jome's point about experience informing his diving boundaries is very important. I also rely on previous competitive experience and lots and lots of training earlier on to arrive at these comfort zones. But this doesn't help the novice who is eager to dive but wants to know how to stay safe.

For me, my definition of staying safe is to let myself plateau and to avoid the temptation for linear progress. I fully accept that at some point my average diving abilities will level off. However, so far, diving FRC has yielded far greater and longer term improvements than other methods. It is especially significant since I would say that most dives are done within a 35-40% reserve on average.

But how to figure out this reserve from the start without experimenting in a more controlled environment?

I really think the only way to is to remove the competitive "redefine your limits" streak in freediving (wishful thinking?). When I started diving with FRC, I hit a wall at 1'15. No matter how I tried I would panic at 1'15" and surface. So I accepted that and always surfaced at or before 1'15". I didn't even have to look at my gauge and without fail I'd surface within a few seconds of 1'15"! Amazing. So I accepted that limit at the time and just kept diving. Eventually, I relaxed into that diving style and my times and depths quickly increased without even willingly trying over weeks and months. I think that this is the ideal way of getting better at freediving. Not by focusing on metres and seconds day to day.

What I would teach to beginners is something like this: dive to 10m for 6 months at least. Come up when you feel anxious. Check your computer only when uncertain. And dive with a buddy. When you can predict your dive time without looking at a watch while underwater, then you may be ready to go deeper or stay down longer.

I think the real challenge here is teach new freedivers how to internalize the experience of being underwater so that they are completely self-aware.

Okay, I've babbled on long enough.
 
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Another thing we should discuss:

When diving with a buddy, what can they realistically do to provide additional safety? In general and in specific rescue situations....

Should be a good debate.
 
Just to clarify what we are discussing here...

At least what I'm talking about is recreational type of diving or spearfishing, not the competitive type of "following a descent line to depths". The latter I would never do alone and spotting indeed makes a lot more sense, because the buddy is really in a position to help.

But for recreational diving, I think most will find it quickly very impractical to do that, and even less for spearfishing. So in addition to hearing what are good(?) solo diving practices, I'm interested to hear what are good buddy practices (by good I mean not too cumbersome but still useful, not something done just for the sake of buddying up) in recreational style diving? This type of diving is not really covered for example in AIDA courses, which are very discipline oriented, yet it is probably the most popular kind of diving.

For me, even discussing this topic still gives me kind of the creeps, because I know someone will read this and think "ok, so it's cool to dive solo". It's important to distinguish here that it is absolutely not ok unless you know very well what you're doing, and even then I consider it risky. But I believe that if you are in tune with your capablities and REALLY stick to "never push my limit" (and not just say that, but forget it the moment a big fish swims into view), it can be RELATIVELY safe. But never as safe as proper buddy diving.

As far as what is "knowing what you're doing?", well, that's a tough one. Because I believe the most dangerous kind of diver is the one who really believes he knows what he's getting into...Getting over confident and feeling a false sense of security. When in reality, very few of us ever reach that state...If any. One needs a certain level of respect for the "hostility" of water, as well as a humble undestanding as to the limitations of the body...And even then - anything can happen. But it's all about odds...
 
Interesting. My dives, measured by videos, seem to run about 2 minutes whether they are at 5 or 10 meters, probably a little longer sometimes because I have some 90 sec bottom time video in about 12 meters. My deepest is probably a measely 15 - maybe deeper here last winter. I generally go up right away when I start to feel a strong urge to breathe. I'd say 2 minutes is a pretty stable figure. I never panic - but I seem to want to stop at 10-12 meters - as I mentioned though - when I get somewhere deeper this gradually edges down with no conscious effort. I sometimes do shallow dives with just ambient air in my lungs to compensate for positive bouyancy but, if I am relaxed and have had a good interval - these are about the same duration.
The main thing that cramps my surface intervals this time of year is cold - the cold air wicking heat out of my back. I'm hoping a smoothskin suit will mitigate this. For me a good surface interval depends on shifting from the 'checking stuff out' mode to the 'deep relaxation' mode - where I nearly begin to doze off on the surface. This last is an awesome experience in itself and I think valueing it as part of the dive is key.


As for the inhibition against talking about diving alone. Education and experience are the best arguments for diving with a buddy and the best ways to make a safe diver. Regrettably there is problably some truth to the idea that talking about it is encouraging it and I guess the best we can do is keep saying that you really should have a qualified dive buddy. Really though - in a recreational scenario - you are going to be on your own quite a bit. I know my times are much shorter diving with my daughter. Just lifting my head out of the water to find her snork on a regular basis uses a tremendous amount of energy.

Experience indicates that your limits will naturally extend, without a driven intentional effort, if you use proper techniques and dive conservatively. What probably kills people most is pushing - whether directly for the purpose of going deeper/longer - or getting fixated on a fish or that ancient german submarine I keep seeing - oddly accompanied by the distinct smell of waffles... From all this it seems the underlying message for damping out the risk is to intentionally implant in yourself the will to let it go - whatever it may be - and to build experience and knowlege so they keep up with eachother. If you want to dive competitively - that must be practiced with rock solid safety protocols.

I know that if the sea has something to show me she will do it in the time I am available, provided I'm properly tuned.
 
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