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Freediving Death...

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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laminar said:
...Do you usually dive recreationally WITH a descent line? You mention using one to pull up FIM style.
No, it is not really a descent line. It is just the line I am attached with to the float. I do not use it for the descent, rather just for the ascent.


laminar said:
This would not suit my recreational diving style very much at all, since I dive on steep walls and usually cover quite a bit of horizontal distance.
That's same with me, and there is absolutely no problem with it. As I am attached to the float, I simply drag the float behind me (or push it). I descent freely where I want, can go horizontally, and then ascent along the line vertically. Sometimes I use my fins, sometimes not at all, during the ascent. I learned that it is better keeping the line always trimmed as much as possible, never to have the buoy too far. That's better for the security:
  1. You can pull the line immediately when you need to use it for the ascent
  2. It better indicates your position for bypassing boats - if you have a 30m line, you let the line free, and there is just a small stream or wind, you will usually surface practically the full length of the line from the float - that's not of a big help, and you cannot even really blame a boat if it crashes you 30m from your float (although I know they should keep a bigger distance, I realize that it is practically not even always possible).
  3. If you are in troubles and need to hold on something before you manage to breath up properly, a float tens of meters away is worthless.
I am looking for a self-recoiling reel that I could mount on my float - it would greatly help with keeping the line trimmed.


laminar said:
But I suppose at certain sites, or when all you want to do is generally go up and down, it would be helpful.
Not really my cup of tea, though.
I agree, neither mine :)


pelagicbeing said:
...I would agree that a surface float / marker bouy is essential when diving solo, and if you arent currently diving with one you should get one, they do not impede your enjoyment of the dive and have a huge safety value.
Actually I think that the float is equally important (when not even more) for buddy diving too. Having a buddy is nice, especially if he knows what to do and does not panic when something bad really happens. The problem though with buddies at recreational/explorative or spearing diving is, that it is often difficult to keep your buddy always in vision, especially if the visibility is not perfect. If you are both attached to the same float (or have two floats bound together), the problem is solved.

In reality, "buddying" in recreational and spearo diving is more about being both at the same location and seeing each other once in a while when they manage to get together more or less by hazard. That's certainly not the buddy system we speak about here, but a real buddy system is extremely rare except of pure freediving competition style descent-line training (there I dive exclusively with at least two buddies too).

But even if you manage to find a buddy with who you really work in the right way and watch each other all the time, it is usually so that one is down, the other on the surface, then maybe a while together on the surface, and then there is the turn of the other buddy. Is something happens, the surface buddy did not yet complete his breath-up, additionally an accident immediately rockets his adrenaline and pulse through the roof, so it is quite likely that he won't be able to successfully recover you anyway. The best example was given by someone earlier in this thread describing exactly such case when a buddy was unable to recover the other because in the panic he simply did not manage to descent so deep. I do not even speak about bringing him up - most likely they would die both.

All these problems may be improved to a great extent if both divers are attached to the same float (or a float combo), and that the line and its fixation can withhold rising the diver up from the bottom, or at least keep him from falling down too quickly at a SWB - it is very tragic when you see a buddy blacking out at 10m, but before you manage to get ready to go down, and then really descent to get him, he can be already at 15m or 20m (or even deeper). If he was attached to the float, you could stop his fall immediately, and go down to get him in much less stress.
 
Hi trux,

What does your line look like? How thick is it? Where do you attach it to your body? Can you upload a photo of it?

Dog leashes use a retractible line, but it has very thin line, not good for FIM. 30m metres of line might be too heavy to retract anyway.

Have you ever been tangled in your line? How do you dive with it usually?

I think that if you were diving with a buddy, having a float marking their location would be excellent. What about tangling though?

Do you carry a knife usually?

Really a winding mechanism with monofilament would be best because then you could (with lots of effort at the surface) retrieve a buddy without having to dive down, thereby eliminating the problem of being too panicked to make a lifesaving dive.

I think that the idea that a buddy can bring a motionless diver from a depth greater than 10m is rather unrealistic. In competitions or line diving, usually the freediver in trouble already has upward momentum, is next to the line, and might have more than one safety freediver ready to assist, if not on the ascent, but also at the surface. Also, most divers use a full inhale or pack and dive more buoyant so than I do. A diver on the bottom may have already lost some air from a blackout and won't be as buoyant.

I would be daunted by having to pick my buddy off the bottom at any depth deeper than 15m and bring them all the way to the surface, even after releasing weightbelts. It would be a really good way to kill yourself. I certainly would not teach people to make that kind of retrieval.

I think while the idea of a float is a movement away from total self-reliance, it may be that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
Specifically, the float system would be very useful when freedivers who are unfamiliar with each other are diving in a group and supervision is not always good. There would be no more "missed divers". "Oh, where's Mr. X?" "Um, I think he's still underwater. He'll come up soon…." With the float it's very clear that the diver is underwater and where they are going.

Benefits of system:
-Freediver's location is always known
-Vastly reduces time to find an overdue freediver
-Possibly eliminates need for underwater retrieval or rescue
-Safety equipment, food, water, signalling devices can be stored in it
-Allows for Free Immersion ascents

Limitations of this system:
-kelp forests
-wrecks
-high current
-big swells (tuggin on you as you descend and ascend)
-some boats will actually aim for floats thinking they are in some kind of slalom race! :duh
-mechanics of float system itself
-Might install false sense of security?
-diving with many divers in vicinity might lead to tangling

The benefits for solo diving:
-body retrieval :(
-boat signalling
-having your own survival resources and supplied
-somewhere to put your camera or back up equipment
-self rescue by FIM if you have a leg problem or feel anxious: Personally, I've always relied on a constant weight ascent and actually feel like I reach the surface faster and more efficiently (monofin) that FIM, but that's just me.
 
I allways use a float which I clip off to a ring on my weight vest. It has fairly thick, bright orange braided polypropaline line. My float is fairly heavy duty - an Omer Shardana Spearfishing float and can pull some in heavy wind or surf. I can store stuff on it in a zippered pouch thingy and it has alot of rings for strappage and whatnot. It's big enough to be a navigational hazard - which is what I was going for. It has a large line holder that I leave floating off the front of the float.

Off the top I would think monofilament could be a real nightmare because of the potential for tangling. Something of a death trap there I think. Though with a monofin you have the advantage of not having a problem if your legs get wrapped together. Still, thicker line is easier to find and grab without looking.

I do sometimes get moderately tangled - but only when I'm doing alot of maneuvering with slack in shallow water. Usually I keep one hand on the line during manuevers to prevent this. The clips on the float are handy for clipping off a camera, water bottle, spearguns, pictures of the family, decorations, portable tv with CNN, cell phone, GPS, random objects found on the bottom, Beer cooler, daughter, flare gun, speared things, pretty rocks, toothpaste, family pets, three piece suits, pop, boom box etc. etc.

You know - Most floats are designed with spearos in mind - two I like are the Omer Atoll and the Omer Shardana - Lee had the atoll at telegraph cove - it does not have quite the surface area of the shardana - but is inflatable and much lighter. The Shardana is that soft plastic they make kayaks and stuff from, with a nylon shell with all the attachment points, velcro straps and semi waterproof zippered bag. It has two large handholds that go throught the float itself and is quite bouyant.

You could easily rig loops on it to support you during breathups and in the event of a diver down you could support yourself with an arm through a loop while you reeled him in. If you wanted you could attach a strobe with a timer on it that the diver activates when he or she goes under. If the diver doesn't return in X-minutes the strobe starts flashing.
 
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Too many good thoughts in this thread.


To address Jon's question on hypercapnic training. I'd also like to see some more discussion.

Seems like there are two schools of thought. One says improve your co2 tolerance and find out what low 02 feels like and what approaching your limit feels like. You could make a very good argument that a high c02 tolerance diver caught in a tight spot will remain calm for longer and have a better chance of surviving. Another approach, which fits me better, is to work on 02 tolerance, dive response, etc and keep a relatively low c02 tolerance. That, in effect, increases safety margins at the same level of performance.

Which is better probably depends on your personality. I'm way to "go for broke" to want to be able to push my limits too easily. Low c02 tolerance limits my dive time and, so far, that seems safer to me.

That said, it looks like, if I want to dive deeper than 40 meters, I'm going to have to lower my C02 tolerance. So how to combine the two ideas? Maybe this will be useful to someone else. I breathup with very slow breaths, 2 per minute, and purge 4-5 breaths (20 sec) before diving. When I want to "reduce" my c02 tolerance, just don't purge. I think I can effectively increase or decrease c02 tolerance in this manner. It seems to work in the pool, not purging cuts dive time by 15 seconds or so.

Anybody else got some ideas?
 
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laminar said:
With the float it's very clear that the diver is underwater and where they are going.

Benefits of system:
-Freediver's location is always known
-Vastly reduces time to find an overdue freediver
-Possibly eliminates need for underwater retrieval or rescue
-Safety equipment, food, water, signalling devices can be stored in it
-Allows for Free Immersion ascents

I can vouch for that. On a trip to Mexico, the panga picked up me, then picked up the second guy, and then we headed for the float of the third guy. By the time we got there without seeing him, it was obvious that he could not be holding his breath that long, but at least we had a place to look for him. I spotted him dead on the bottom at 90 feet. He was still dead, but at least when I called his wife, I could tell her that he was dead rather than missing.

But as you said, kelp is a problem for floats here in SoCal. Its impossible to dive under kelp and come up on the other side dragging the float after you. People do use float lines in the kelp, but with no float or just a small egg float to use an a hand grip when all the line is pulled through their hand by a fish. I suppose the egg float could make it slightly easier to find the diver's body.

I'm told that some dive boats mandate the use of floats, but the divers either stay outside of the kelp, which is not good for their chances for fish, or clip the float to the kelp and go on without it, which doesn't do much good in finding their bodies.
 
I've got a few different floats.

My larger one for spearfishing is an OMEr America float. I use a shorter float line on it for spearing, since the fish in this area are shallower than others, and clip it off to the back of my belt. It follows me along just fine, with bi-fins, and holds all of my crap- water bottle, food, fish stringer, whistle, signal mirror, goody bag, camera and an extra mask just in case.

When I'm out diving in some deeper water, looking for anchors and stuff, I use a small wreck reel with about 140' of line on it. I can tie a small weight to it and have a nice guide line up and down. It isn't as easy to pull myself up as my 1/4" rope, but it does work and it packs super small. I can then let out about 15' and clip it off to the back of my belt for the trip home.

I also have bigger inner tube floats that I can attach bigger lines to, or my retrieval system, and it can hold a LOT of crap. I don't normally carry it with me since it's so big, but it is nice when your dragging home 30-40 pounds Worth of anchors and lost fishing gear.

What are others using when out freediving with their monofins. Or maybe I should ask what's the easiest way that you've found to pull a float when your swimming with a monofin? I find that the line keeps bumping my fin when clipped off to my belt.

Jon
 
Hypoxic or hypercapnic training?

I think both.

My CO2 tolerance and my comfort enduring contractions is high from my competitive days, especially on constant weight ascents. So is my hypoxic tolerance, although it probably is reduced from the levels I experience when I am actually training for competitions (which these days is never).

However, diving the way I do, I rarely enter into any need for C02 tolerance since I sink to the depth after only one or two gentle monofin strokes. The dive ends up being a static followed by an easy ascent. Not much CO2 generated there. That's why I have to really watch my ventilation so that it's neutral. Half the breath up is spent in 10-15 second cycles of static apnea.

As Eric, mentioned, it is good to know what it feels like to be hypoxic so you can judge your state after the dive and then plan the next one accordingly.

What I'm getting at is that if you have a tolerance for both low O2 and high CO2 but don't dive in such a way to find yourself experiencing either, you'll have an extra reserve for when a dive goes wrong. The caveat is that you must somehow maintain these tolerances through other means, whether its apnea or exercise.

When I ascend from a ugly dive I have the belief that I can handle at least 20 more seconds of hard exertion on a hypoxic and hypercapnic basis. More if I'm in good fitness shape.

Pete
 
laminar said:
What does your line look like? How thick is it? Where do you attach it to your body? Can you upload a photo of it?
At the moment I use a very basic inflatable buoy of a similar type as on the picture below. The line is I think just 3mm thick, in signal-orange nylon (just like on the photo). I just attached a 1kg weight to it, so that it floats with the flag straight up (there is a separate chamber that you can fill with water, sand or maybe some lead shot, but this was simpler and efficient). I am thinking about getting or constructing a real float - for example buying the one from Sevylor, but the advantage of the buoy is that you can put it into the side pocket of your fin bag.

P6710150G.jpg

I attach it to my belt - which is another important security measure I forgot to mention originally - in case of problems you won't hesitate to drop your belt, since you can retrieve it then easily again. Also, if you get tangled, or the line caught in rocks or corals, and you cannot quickly untangle you, or use your knife, you can simply drop the belt to get away.

As with all security tasks, I strongly recommend drilling it often - you should drop your belt, pull your knife, flood a mask, surface without using fins, drilling a buddy rescue (when you are with a buddy), each time you go out. If you do not do it, when you need it, you will either forget about such possibility, or panic and will not manage to do it properly or quickly enough.

When exploring some holes, small tunnels, or caverns, I attach it to a rock, or sometimes use a small anchor I also have - though by doing so you lose a lot of the security the float offers, hence I try limiting it to the necessary minimum.

laminar said:
Dog leashes use a retractable line, but it has very thin line, not good for FIM. 30m meters of line might be too heavy to retract anyway.
Good idea; I may try one, but am afraid it won't keep more than two days in sea water. Are there no self-retractable reels for spearing or fishing? The resistance is not a problem - you can pull out as much as you need of the line before you dive; and retract it when you ascent, or only when you swim on surface.

laminar said:
Have you ever been tangled in your line? How do you dive with it usually?
No, I have not really been tangled when diving (especially because I usually keep the line trimmed), but when swimming on the surface, since I use to stay directly at the buoy for security reasons, all the length of the line is around me - that's where it is the most disturbing, and that's why I want a reel.

The 30m of the line is not heavy at all, since it is quite thin. The line and the buoy are strong enough though that I can really pull on them to get up.

I already explained how I dive with it - when on surface I keep it close to may head; when I descend, I let the line slide between my fingers, keeping so the line in tension, and the buoy just overhead, and when surfacing I fin along it upward, or use it in FIM style to pull on it to the surface.

laminar said:
I think that if you were diving with a buddy, having a float marking their location would be excellent. What about tangling though?
Well, I admit it may be little bit of a hassle, but I think it is manageable, especially because you should never go down both in the same time. Possibly you could have just one line and taking it always for the dive.

laminar said:
Do you carry a knife usually?
Yes, of course, as I wrote in my earlier post, a knife or scissors are an important security tool. And especially, you have to be used to pull it quickly and handle underwater.
 
Here is my float, I find a foam float works well because I can carry spare equipment on board. In fact my float was a surfboard that I cut to shape. I can coil my line around the board & lock it in place at whatever length I need.
 

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Here I think we are pretty much legally required to have a flag. Boats are legally required to stay 200 feet away. Fun fact: The diver's flag was invented in michigan!
 
trux said:
I am thinking about getting or constructing a real float - for example buying the one from Sevylor, but the advantage of the buoy is that you can put it into the side pocket of your fin bag.
Now that is a cool gadget to have :inlove
Strange what we as divers and spearfishers find would be good to have rofl
 
I build my first float (many years ago) using an old aluminum bicycle wheel, from which I removed all the spokes, and weaved a net through the spoke holes. Then I tied the wheel in the center of a pneumatic inner tube. It was kind of heavy to tow, but it was sturdy, provided a lot of space to carry stuff, and I could even climb on it to rest if I wanted to.
 
I'm going to repeat an idea I think is pretty swell. For deep divers who dive with others - a timed strobe on your float set to go off after whatever you consider a reasonable interval. It would need an easy to activate button that would require no energy expenditure to press. Then - if your pal saw the strobe flashing he/she could swim to your float and pull you up by the floatline.
 
i should have been clearer in my post i dive solo when freediving but always with a partner when scuba.
With freediving why does one need a partner it never made much sense. If you get in trouble down 20 or 30 ft it will be at least 2 minutes before you are missed by your buddy. Then he will take at least another minute or two to find you, if you are lucky. Then another minute or two to get you out of the trouble and to the surface...woops not quick enough you are brain dead.
 
The majority of freediving deaths are caused by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout"]Shallow Water Blackout[/ame] (SWB) or [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_water_blackout"]Deep Water Blackout[/ame] (DWB), which paradoxically both usually happen in the last few meters during the ascent. Unlike the name suggests, DWB does not happen at depth, but it is actually what many freedivers here mistakenly call SWB. Exactly taken though, SWB describes only incidents at dives where the maximal depth did not surpass 5m (not really freediving but rather snorkeling or spearfishing), while DWB describes BO during ascent from a deep freedive, due to depressurization and hence more sudden and intensive hypoxia in the final stage of the ascent.

Properly trained buddy will always come to meet you before surfacing, and will accompany you during the ascent to the surface, being ready to intervene immediately in case of need. If you black out, you'll be on the surface within few seconds, and there removing the mask and lightly blowing onto your face while quietly instructing you to breath, is in very most cases all what is needed to bring you back again. Often, experienced feediver may recognize symptoms of hypoxia before you black out and assist you to the surface quicker, saving you so from the BO.

All that can happen within very few seconds, but even if it took four minutes as you wrote, you'd be mostly still quite far from being brain dead. All this is the reason we are telling a buddy is extremely important in freediving, but having a buddy who actually knows what to do and how, is important even much more. Just being on the same location with another freediver is not what we call a buddy system - it is indeed more or less worthless, if not even more dangerous.
 
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What he said.

The unpredictable and sudden nature of SWB is the biggest problem. Because of the huge pressure change in the last meters, it is possible to feel "completely ok and in control", with no warning signs, and then in the last meters of ascent just boom - lights out.

This is not usually fatal if a buddy is there to catch you, but in almost every case when diving alone, it is. That's the big potato here...

Most of this discussion has revolved around wheather or not it is possible to dive alone in such a way that one can have enough of a safety margin to be relatively safe. I think the conclusion is that there are things you can do to make it safeR, but you can never be as safe as with a proper buddy system
 
trux said:
The majority of freediving deaths are caused by Shallow Water Blackout (SWB) or Deep Water Blackout (DWB), which paradoxically both usually happen in the last few meters during the ascent. Unlike the name suggests, DWB does not happen at depth, but it is actually what many freedivers here mistakenly call SWB.

I disagree. Shallow water blackout is a blackout which occurs near the surface, during the ascent from a deep depth (>5m). Deep water blackout is a blackout which occurs in the deeper phase of the dive, typically on the bottom or the very early part of the ascent.

Examples:
Shallow Water Blackout: A diver descends to 20m, stays there for some time, then ascends, and blacks out at 5m.

Deep Water Blackout:
- A diver descends to 25m, and remains there for some time, and blacks out on the bottom
- A diver descends to 70m, and starts to ascend, but blacks out at 50m

However, the true distinction really has nothing to do with shallow or deep. The true distinction is the different mechanism of blackout. There are really four types of blackout:
1. Hypoxia blackout (low oxygen)
2. CO2 blackout (too high CO2)
3. N2 blackout (too high N2)
4. Hyperoxic blackout (too high O2)

A shallow water blackout refers pretty much exclusively to #1. Generally, a 'deep water blackout' refers to #2, #3 or #4... for freedivers it would be most often #2.
 
Ok, so this Murat thing with early breathingreflex and high CO2 increasing the risk of a Deep blackout?

I have never heard of someone getting a blackout in depth.
But Eric wrote about someone who had.
How big is the risk of getting a Deep blackout (on the bottom, or in the early ascent)? It not seem bo be so ordinary, but it can happen.
 
Tobbe said:
I have never heard of someone getting a blackout in depth.
But Eric wrote about someone who had.
.

Well, I'll tell you about one.

On a spearfishing trip to Mexico, I found my buddy kneeling on the bottom at 90 feet with his head and shoulders under a ledge holding his shaft. There was no fish on the slip tip, but it seems likely that there had been.

Some people theorized that he had shot a pargo and passed out before reaching the surface, then been pulled back down. That would make it SWB, but I doubt that is what happened. He was perfectly balanced on his knees, and I find it highly unlikely that he would have been arranged that way if pulled unconscious back to the bottom by a pargo. I think he blacked out in place.
 
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