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Idea for a pneumatic gun

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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tromic

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2007
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Starting idea was from russian forum (Garpun.spb.ru :: - "" .)
I tried to make it more realistic.



Obviously some problems should be yet solved. The main issue is how easily to prepare the gun for next shoot.
 
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Starting idea was from russian forum (Garpun.spb.ru :: - "" .)
I tried to make it more realistic.



Obviously some problems should be yet solved. The main issue is how easily to prepare the gun for next shoot.

Side-entry valves on a tube are hard to seal off as you have both the curvature of the tube to deal with as well as the circular valve hole opening, so the pressure seal has to operate in a curved plane (3D) and not a flat plane (2D). If the side-entry valve hole is small in diameter then the curve being penetrated is nearly flat, but then not much air can flow through it as it is throttled by the size restriction. Access holes for radially acting trigger pins are OK as the holes are small enough to use an "O" ring or a rubber packing and the hole is always filled with a sliding pin or shaft, it is never opened. A rubber sleeve can be used on side-entry holes like the pumping barrel valve in a "Mirage", but that is a one-way action, blow-off valve. With a pressure differential acting across it the side-entry valve seals as long as the external pressure is higher than what is inside the barrel tube, but it will be unreliable when operating the other way and difficult to engineer a quick opening action in any case. Valves work OK as axial valves as then a flat plane opens up with the seal on the periphery of the cylinder being exposed, but radial air transfer valves don't lend themselves to two-way action. Another problem is the initial movement of the piston body itself will throttle the shot. Not really worth solving this one on my opinion.
 
Side-entry valves on a tube are hard to seal off as you have both the curvature of the tube to deal with as well as the circular valve hole opening, so the pressure seal has to operate in a curved plane (3D) and not a flat plane (2D). If the side-entry valve hole is small in diameter then the curve being penetrated is nearly flat, but then not much air can flow through it as it is throttled by the size restriction. Access holes for radially acting trigger pins are OK as the holes are small enough to use an "O" ring or a rubber packing and the hole is always filled with a sliding pin or shaft, it is never opened. A rubber sleeve can be used on side-entry holes like the pumping barrel valve in a "Mirage", but that is a one-way action, blow-off valve. With a pressure differential acting across it the side-entry valve seals as long as the external pressure is higher than what is inside the barrel tube, but it will be unreliable when operating the other way and difficult to engineer a quick opening action in any case. Valves work OK as axial valves as then a flat plane opens up with the seal on the periphery of the cylinder being exposed, but radial air transfer valves don't lend themselves to two-way action. Another problem is the initial movement of the piston body itself will throttle the shot. Not really worth solving this one on my opinion.

I am not concerned about sealing on a rounder surface with 6 mm hole in 16 mm OD barrel. With 2,5 mm thick wall I can make it flat (2D) for sealing. I am neither not concerned about quick opening the valve. I suppose it should work well and fast because of self sustained differential force that opens the valve after action on trigger.
The only problem is closing the valve before new shoot. It requires about 6 kgf to close the valve. Pete, thanks to your response! :friday
 
The GSD pneumatic spearguns "Dynamic" and "Katiuscia" used this idea in that a valve operated by a series of levers and cranks was used to unplug the rear of the inner barrel tube, the concept is simple, but the realization of this concept was complicated. Without a perfect seal on that releasing valve the guns don't stay cocked as air pressure seeps back into the inner barrel thereby reversing the cocking action. The detail design was made more complicated in order to connect up the rear of the gun to a hand pump for pre-pressurization while still being able to access the linkage mechanism that pulled back the releasing valve's piston body when you squeezed the trigger. When new everything worked OK, but the releasing valve seat, a trapped "O" ring in a metal clamp holder directly incorporated into a large moulded plastic component had to be replaced as a complete unit, you could not just change the "O" ring. That "O" ring valve seat was mechanically held to stop it being blown out of position as air rushed past it during the shot. My GSD spearguns are all out of action, bar the GSD "Punto" which uses a completely different system (3 ball mechanical sear instead of a releasing valve system) because the replacement component became unobtainable.
 
Pete, you are right. It seems simple but realization could be demanding.
It is not easy to make design simple end reliable. :)
 
Pete, you are right. It seems simple but realization could be demanding.
It is not easy to make design simple end reliable. :)

The "GSD" spearguns were of the highest quality, but expensive to make with their numerous small parts and the longer assembly time required to install all the rods, links and pivots of the mechanical trigger operated valve system located both inside and outside the gun's pressure chamber, the external parts being hidden inside the flooding rearmost section of the plastic receiver that capped the rear of the gun. This unique and beautifully made mechanical system reversed the action of the releasing (or firing) valve using leverage and biasing springs, unlike releasing valve guns where a manual reset is required where you physically push the releasing valve back via a projecting rear knob, or via a moving butt pad, such as is used on the "Continent" and the Inalex "Alpha C1" spearguns.

When the downturn in spearfishing came in the eighties only the most economical to produce pneumatic spearguns survived, hence expensive guns disappeared as their manufacturers decided that they could no longer compete. "GSD" spearguns were always highly sculptural in their appearance and very stylish, but dwindling sales and a lack of spare parts saw them disappear, their pneumatic guns all using a ball tail spear which was held in the gun by three collet type jaws located on the nylon piston's nose that gripped the steel ball. When the piston hit the muzzle the jaws opened up automatically and let the spear go. Very innovative, but expensive!
 
Zelinka is also similar in principle to these guns, but with moving barrel. It is also pretty expensive.
 
I have slightly modified the GSD schematic diagram to show how the trigger movement pulls the releasing valve open. Springs close it again after you let go of the trigger. Pivot pins are shown in blue, rotating end connecting links in orange. The releasing valve's piston body is attached by a connecting rod to a crank, somewhat like a piston in a combustion engine. Threaded rod ends are all adjustable, so the links have to be set at the correct spacing to work properly.
 

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  • GSD Dynamic speargun layout.jpg
    GSD Dynamic speargun layout.jpg
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Pete, what is a cross section ratio for air entering the barrel behind the piston to barrel cross section, after the valve is fully opened, 50% or maybe more..?
How fast is the valve being fully opened after acting on trigger?
 
The valve plug is pulled open by the trigger movement, so I assume the speed of the valve opening partly depends on how quickly you pull the trigger back. However the valve plug can open without moving the trigger, as in when you muzzle load the gun with the spear and the air then being pushed by the sliding piston transfers from the inner barrel back through the releasing valve into the outer reservoir after forcing the valve plug open. The longitudinal pin operated by the two linked trigger levers is in two sections, the inner pin has a head on the rear end so that as it moves slightly up and down with the crank rotation the outer pin can still push on it. This head can be seen on the schematic diagram positioned above and slightly to the right of the trigger pivot pin. If the inner pin moves forwards as the valve plug opens then the trigger does not necessarily move as the outer pin is always biased by the compressed air pressure inside the gun trying to blow that pin out of the gun and away from any contact with the head on the rear of the inner pin.

The actual air flow in the gun transfers from either side of the valve plug via two large slots in the moulded nylon valve housing that provides both the locating bore for the valve plug's operating stroke and part of the support structure for the inner parts of the trigger mechanism. These side windows, or slots, are not shown on the schematic diagram which is simply a cross-section taken through the gun's central axis. The forward edges of these two slots line up just rearwards of the releasing valve seat, so you can see the valve seat "O" ring by looking through them with the nylon housing removed from the gun. The compressed air rapidly flowing transversely and inwards through these two side slots may serve to help push the valve plug back, causing it to open quicker than with just the trigger moving it back, there is no way to check on it as the trigger doesn't convey any feedback on what is happening once the two longitudinal pin sections stop connecting.

The GSD "Dynamic" gun has a 14 mm ID inner barrel, as does the "Katiuscia". The latter has a rear power dial which controls a variable throttle located inside the inner barrel, positioned forwards of the releasing valve position, so any variation in firing power is not controlled by the degree of opening of the trigger operated valve, which was a big surprise when I first examined one of these more complicated guns. The bore of the valve opening I will have to measure on a "Katiuscia", my "Dynamic" is fully assembled even though it is not working, but the "Katiuscia" is in pieces somewhere and still has its original "O" ring, which sets the bore size, it being the valve seat. With this "O" ring damaged the entire nylon moulding has to be replaced as it is one integrated assembly and forms the inner guts of the gun, without it the gun is out of action as everything depends on it.

I remember that the valve hole is smaller than the inner barrel ID as cracking open the releasing valve would be too much on a 14 mm inner barrel, even with the leverage of the trigger mechanism, if that valve hole was 14 mm in diameter! That smaller bore hole will throttle the gun, but by how much I don't know. Comparisons between guns are difficult as the GSD guns shot a 9 mm shaft with a 14 mm barrel offering a claimed 15% (196/169 = 1.159) more force than an equivalent 13 mm barrel. There were no 11 mm inner barrels in pneumatic spearguns in the seventies, which is when the GSD spearguns first appeared here. At about double the price of anything else they were not that popular.
 
Thanks, Pete!
It seems to be very clever made guns, and very powerful. I had never heard of them before.
Here is a picture of GSD and some other old guns:
Skin Diving History
GSD is looking nice.
Cheers, Tomislav

The 9 mm shafts used by the valve-operated GSD guns were an interesting choice for a projectile given that they are 26.6% heavier than an 8 mm shaft and 65.3% heavier than a 7 mm shaft! Punching holes in heavy scaled reef fish was a desirable attribute when lesser projectiles might bounce off, but shooting would be at relatively close range to have any velocity when the shaft struck the target. I don't remember slimmer shafts being available for these guns, but many older pneumatic guns had 9 mm shafts as "heavy duty" was seen as the way to go back then and band guns at the time were often fitted with 3/8" shafts as a "step-up" from 5/16" (8 mm). Things have changed a lot since then!
 
Love pneumatic guns but spearfish in shallow fresh water going to salt water and deeper how does this affect pneumatic guns
 
An another design idea.
Garpun.spb.ru :: -


An interesting design, the piston is in a sense "two-piece" to eliminate the effect of spear rebound when you stop pushing on the shaft as residual air under pressure tends to push the piston slightly forwards in the gun once the releasing valve closes until that small volume of air expands back to ambient pressure. This "rebound behaviour" is present in all releasing valve pneumatic guns, at first you think the spear has not been held, but then it stops, unless the releasing valve is leaking, then the gun does not stay loaded. If that forward movement is enough to reopen the releasing valve then the gun shoots without you pulling the trigger! In this design that small air volume re-expansion pushes the piston forwards, but not the blue tubular valve "tail" section which "uncouples" from the piston tail and stays in its rearmost position thereby closing off the inner barrel from the outer air reservoir. This blue tubular valve section looks like it moves forwards to open once pushed by the longitudinal pin from the trigger moving that grey "top hat" element that engages the rear of the blue tubular valve, but the blue tubular valve section may not follow the piston along the inner barrel once air flows through its bore. But where will it stop in the inner barrel? Maybe that does not matter as the piston will push it back during muzzle loading once the piston presses on it. Relative opening movement of the blue tubular valve element with respect to the grey "top hat" will throttle the shot at first, maybe the top of the hat needs to be shortened to provide less overlap with the bore of the blue tubular valve. At the other end of the blue tubular valve the trapped air re-expansion will open the piston tail from being fully inserted inside the blue tubular valve's bore, otherwise another throttling position, but only momentary in action. The blue tubular valve's bore needs to be "filled up" with material to minimize the air volume trapped inside it as well as that behind the rear of the releasing valve when the gun is cocked, but maybe needs sufficient air inside there to separate the piston from the tubular valve by pushing the piston forwards enough to clear its tail from that bore once the "rebound behaviour" occurs. If the blue tubular valve chases the piston down the inner barrel then its own bore will not throttle the shot, but it looks like that will not happen even though it may drive forwards a short distance before friction from its two "O" ring seals stops it moving.

Main advantage here is that the trigger does not have to oppose gun pressure in cracking open the releasing valve, especially as pushing pins into a gun usually means that this will happen (e.g. the GSD guns) unless the trigger operates an unblocking action that allows the releasing valve to be blown back and be opened by the gun's internal pressure. So in a sense this is a "balanced" releasing valve design, the same pressure acting on either side of the valve in terms of its back and forth movement defining the "sides" of the valve.

The trigger may have some kick-back when the releasing valve opens as the air flowing into the inner barrel will also push the trigger pin backwards as well as propelling the piston forwards.
 
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I would make a trigger-line release, something like this (or similar):

 
There is a problem which probably explains why this type of design has not been used. Unfortunately any air flow windows, side ports or slots in an inner barrel tube will eventually cut or nick the periphery of an "O" ring or rubber packing sliding past them, especially when under pressure. This is because the edge of the rubber squeezes up into the gap created by these openings and then has to push back down once it crosses to the other side of the opening. The uneven movement of the rubber causes a distortion that can tear it as all the other parts of the seal's periphery stay in continual contact with the inner barrel wall. Even small diameter port holes can cut an "O" ring, I once saw four small nicks in an "O" ring on a "Mirage" pumping barrel piston when it was inserted at the wrong end of the barrel, the four small diameter side ports around the barrel acted as cutters as the "O" ring was pushed past. The larger the diameter of the seal and the smaller the side port that it sweeps past then the less likely the seal will be damaged, due to lower curvature on the seal periphery, but it will be damaged eventually. When "O" ring seals cross a uniform boundary, like the rear open end of an inner barrel tube, the entire periphery of the seal is compressed at the same time and then there is no localized distortion that will damage the seal. This situation is seen in valve operated hydropneumatic guns and pneumatic guns such as the various "Zelinka" models, but that requires an open-ended inner barrel with the outer body or tank tube holding the gun together, or a larger internal diameter connecting element/sub-structure with its own airflow windows or ports that joins the rear of the inner barrel to the rear end of the gun in order to bridge the open-ended inner barrel tube.
 
I agree about possibility of damaging the O-ring. That is maybe the weakest point in this design. The edges of the holes must be carefully shaped and polished. Another potential problem to be solved is trigger and line release. After pressing on trigger it will very fast move in one direction-ahead and than in opposite-back direction.
 
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