Ideal heart-rate control

[Triton1715]

I've been digging through the forum and threads on this one quite a bit lately and have a question for everyone. I apologize if the answer is in the threads and I have somehow missed it.

Time and time again I see references to the ideal heart rate both pre-dive and during a dive as being a relatively high heart-rate before apnea to clear waste and ensure the body is as sufficiently oxygenated and upon the start of apnea, to slow the heart-rate significantly down. There is a lot of information on the forums for various means of slowing the heart rate through things such as meditation and a variety of breathing patterns. . .all of which take a fair amount of time resulting in a slower heart-rate before apnea has commenced. Is there any technique or has any one mastered the ability to maintain a high heart-rate during breath-up (if you wish to call it that), yet have it drop off significantly upon beginning apnea in much the same way the MDR suddenly causes a rapid drop in heart-rate yet without it being associated to the MDR. . . a consciously controlled mechanism rather than a physiological response?

Thanks!

 

[Divewiz.Hurghada]

I've been digging through the forum and threads on this one quite a bit lately and have a question for everyone. I apologize if the answer is in the threads and I have somehow missed it.

Time and time again I see references to the ideal heart rate both pre-dive and during a dive as being a relatively high heart-rate before apnea to clear waste and ensure the body is as sufficiently oxygenated and upon the start of apnea, to slow the heart-rate significantly down. There is a lot of information on the forums for various means of slowing the heart rate through things such as meditation and a variety of breathing patterns. . .all of which take a fair amount of time resulting in a slower heart-rate before apnea has commenced. Is there any technique or has any one mastered the ability to maintain a high heart-rate during breath-up (if you wish to call it that), yet have it drop off significantly upon beginning apnea in much the same way the MDR suddenly causes a rapid drop in heart-rate yet without it being associated to the MDR. . . a consciously controlled mechanism rather than a physiological response?

Thanks!

Hello Triton,

First of all we never want to increase out heart-rate during the breath-up, that would be Hyperventilation and it is very very bad thing to do before the dive. Increasing the heart-rate will never increase the O2 level in your blood, due to some reasons the simple way to explain it is,
Ask yourself, if the heart-rate increases would that consume more O2 before the dive or less ( Of course as the heart-rate goes up more O2 is consumed, right ) that is something we don't want at all.

The O2 saturation in the blood is between 95-100% and can't increase than your normal level by any kind of breathing techniques.

What we are trying to do during the breath-up is to relax which means slow hear-rate and less O2 consumption.

I would advise you to read about Hyperventilation because it is one of the big reasons for blackouts

Dive safe and never freedive alone!!!

 

[Triton1715]

Hi The-Freediver,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I think however that you are conflating heart-rate with breathing-rate. Heart-rate has nothing to do with hyperventilation as, by its definition, hyperventilation is specifically breathing at any rate higher than is metabolically required (with the danger of course being the upsetting of natural CO2 balance). Hyperventilation has little to no bearing on heart-rate (with the exception of potentially elevating the HR due to the increased metabolic demands brought about by increased muscle activity via aggressive HV).

Though I omitted the context from my question, I mainly meant for my query to apply to repetitive diving and the recovery period before beginning another dive. The question I posed actually is a continuation of a comment made by Trux and a few others over the years on the forum:

". . .During tables and serial diving you have the recovery just before the dive And even at a single shot diving (i.e. competition), reducing the HR prior the dive just leads to worse oxygenation. and cumulation of waste metabolic products."

In the ideal world, your body would have a higher heart-rate between repetitive dives to facilitate the exchange of wastes and toxins as well as increase oxygenation. Again, ideally, upon the start of the apnea your heart rate would drop considerably (not 30 seconds in, but immediately). Unfortunately, having either of these to things occur quickly is a very difficult task and I was curious as to whether or not anyone has developed such excellent control of their HR.

I hope that is a better explanation of my question. Thanks again for the reply though!

 

[Divewiz.Hurghada]

Hi The-Freediver,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I think however that you are conflating heart-rate with breathing-rate. Heart-rate has nothing to do with hyperventilation as, by its definition, hyperventilation is specifically breathing at any rate higher than is metabolically required (with the danger of course being the upsetting of natural CO2 balance). Hyperventilation has little to no bearing on heart-rate (with the exception of potentially elevating the HR due to the increased metabolic demands brought about by increased muscle activity via aggressive HV).

Though I omitted the context from my question, I mainly meant for my query to apply to repetitive diving and the recovery period before beginning another dive. The question I posed actually is a continuation of a comment made by Trux and a few others over the years on the forum:

". . .During tables and serial diving you have the recovery just before the dive And even at a single shot diving (i.e. competition), reducing the HR prior the dive just leads to worse oxygenation. and cumulation of waste metabolic products."

In the ideal world, your body would have a higher heart-rate between repetitive dives to facilitate the exchange of wastes and toxins as well as increase oxygenation. Again, ideally, upon the start of the apnea your heart rate would drop considerably (not 30 seconds in, but immediately). Unfortunately, having either of these to things occur quickly is a very difficult task and I was curious as to whether or not anyone has developed such excellent control of their HR.

I hope that is a better explanation of my question. Thanks again for the reply though!

Hyperventilation has nothing to do with hear-rate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is one of important parts you learn during any proper freediving course.....please read the below.

Some people believe that breathing faster and deeper at high altitudes can compensate for oxygen lack. This is only partially true. Such abnormal breathing, known as hyperventilation, also causes you to flush from your lungs and blood much of the carbon dioxide your system needs to maintain the proper degree of blood acidity. The chemical imbalance in the body then produces dizziness, tingling of the fingers and toes, sensation of body heat, rapid heart rate, blurring of vision, muscle spasm and, finally unconsciousness. The symptoms resemble the effects of hypoxia and the brain becomes equally impaired.

You can read more here: http://www.pilotfriend.com/aeromed/medical/hyperventilation.htm

It is not a freediving website, but still talking about Hyperventilation.

Thanks

 

[Triton1715]

Thanks The Freediver,

Heh heh. I think we are speaking past each other. You are correct and you'll note that my comment was given the qualifier that HR was affected in terms of increased metabolic demands though I neglected to also list vasconstriction brought about by being in a hypocapnic state. I simply was trying to avoid splitting hairs and getting bogged down in secondary details which are not pertinent to my original question. Your initial response claimed that a higher HR was hyperventilation which is a false equivalency I was attempting to rectify and clarify in the context of my original question and I see that painting with broad strokes has simply brought about a desire to put a fine point on the details. I was merely attempting to redirect the attention to the primary question I had posed rather than picking apart the minutia. I apologize for being so general in my remarks at the expense of accuracy.

Thanks again for the reply! I appreciate your desire to be as accurate as possible

 

[MarcinB]

Hyperventilation has nothing to do with hear-rate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are wrong. Hyperventilation does increase HR. The function of the heart and respiratory system is closely related. However, it is hard to tell whether it's good or bad. On the one hand increased HR elevates oxygen consumption by the heart, but on the other it should increase oxygen delivery to the tissues. Of course O2 saturation of the arterial blood will not change much (it can increase only by 2-3%), however, increased blood flow can theoretically lead to higher O2 saturation of the venous blood. It's normally ~75% and you should keep in mind that venous blood constitutes approximately 80% of total blood volume. However, concomitant hypocapnia complicates everything. In some organs, eg. the brain, hypocapnia leads to vasocontriction and decrease in blood flow. As a result saturation of the venous blood flowing from these organs decreases. It is experimentally confirmed in humans that hyperventilation causes decreased O2 saturation in the jugular vein. Nevertheless, in order to find out what is the net effect of hyperventilation on venous blood O2 saturation, samples of mixed venous blood should be measured. But this requires blood sampling from the pulmonary artery. Unfortunately, I was not able to find any information on this issue in the scientific literature.

 

[Divewiz.Hurghada]

You are welcome anytime buddy

Wish you safe diving always!

 

[Triton1715]

Thanks! You too!

 

[Divewiz.Hurghada]

You are wrong. Hyperventilation does increase HR. The function of the heart and respiratory system is closely related. However, it is hard to tell whether it's good or bad. On the one hand increased HR elevates oxygen consumption by the heart, but on the other it should increase oxygen delivery to the tissues. Of course O2 saturation of the arterial blood will not change much (it can increase only by 2-3%), however, increased blood flow can theoretically lead to higher O2 saturation of the venous blood. It's normally ~75% and you should keep in mind that venous blood constitutes approximately 80% of total blood volume. However, concomitant hypocapnia complicates everything. In some organs, eg. the brain, hypocapnia leads to vasocontriction and decrease in blood flow. As a result saturation of the venous blood flowing from these organs decreases. It is experimentally confirmed in humans that hyperventilation causes decreased O2 saturation in the jugular vein. Nevertheless, in order to find out what is the net effect of hyperventilation on venous blood O2 saturation, samples of mixed venous blood should be measured. But this requires blood sampling from the pulmonary artery. Unfortunately, I was not able to find any information on this issue in the scientific literature.

Hello Marcin,

I can't see why I'm wrong when we are saying the same thing here, anyway thanks for your add value.

 

[Triton1715]

Funny, I almost got tripped up by that comment as well until I read the rest of your post.

 

[Divewiz.Hurghada]

hehehehehehe, that is funny Triton

 

[growingupninja]

Though I omitted the context from my question, I mainly meant for my query to apply to repetitive diving and the recovery period before beginning another dive. The question I posed actually is a continuation of a comment made by Trux and a few others over the years on the forum:

". . .During tables and serial diving you have the recovery just before the dive And even at a single shot diving (i.e. competition), reducing the HR prior the dive just leads to worse oxygenation. and cumulation of waste metabolic products."

In the ideal world, your body would have a higher heart-rate between repetitive dives to facilitate the exchange of wastes and toxins as well as increase oxygenation. Again, ideally, upon the start of the apnea your heart rate would drop considerably (not 30 seconds in, but immediately). Unfortunately, having either of these to things occur quickly is a very difficult task and I was curious as to whether or not anyone has developed such excellent control of their HR.

For serial diving with short recovery period, cardio conditioning is a huge asset. Fast drop in HR at the start of breathhold would be affected by the dive response of the diver, which may respond to training (I personally believe it to be largely influenced by genetics), but cardio conditioning along with apnea training, or at least dynamic apnea training with short rest intervals will definitely condition the body to recover faster.

If you've trained much with a pulse oxymeter you'll discover that elevated HR in the recovery period has a direct correlation to how fast the blood is being resupplied with O2... while O2 sat as measured in your fingertip is climbing back to normal, pulse is high. Once it reaches normal, pulse drops back to resting or at least baseline for the exertion you're doing. There's no need to control any of it consciously. Sometimes with a particularly hard set (high exertion/short inteval), HR can continue to be very high even though I've already begun to next breathhold, but when watching the pulse O2 sat I can see that my body is still working to bring circulating blood back to baseline levels, which it can do pretty easily from the new air in my lungs; in other words, resupplying blood O2 always takes priority over conserving O2 in the lung--body doesn't care if you're holding your breath or not, if there is O2 available in the lung it is going to put it in the blood. Once that's taken care of, with continued apnea, the body goes back into dive mode. Exhale/empty lung training puts a different spin on it--blood O2 may not ever recover to baseline levels over the course of the set.

When doing serial static breathholds, it may do a second dip to well below resting (ie back to dive mode levels) for a minute or two even though I'm still breathing. I honestly have no idea why that happens; doesn't happen all the time but I've noticed it a time or two and another fairly advanced diver on here said it's happened to them. I think it might be metabolism simply slowing way down. I've noticed during serial statics that as I get deeper into the set, baseline HR (post recovery phase) tends to drop at least 10%. Might simply be a relaxation thing.

As far as fast drop in HR at the beginning of the breathhold, cold water and no warm-up (and the genetic/natural thing) help here. Also remember bradycardia is a good indicator but it's not everything--you can have fairly strong vasoconstriction without extreme bradycardia. If your oxymeter has an EKG reading you can see this happening sometimes--initially a very minimal drop in HR but dramatic drop in stroke volume at the fingertips.

 

[Triton1715]

Thank you for the very informative reply Growingupninja. I think I may have to invest in a pulse oxymeter. Having read so many references to it on the forums, I could see where it could certainly be helpful in training. . . and also just plain interesting to see what sensations your body has in conjuction with various readings.

 

[Fondueset]

Thank you for the very informative reply Growingupninja. I think I may have to invest in a pulse oxymeter. Having read so many references to it on the forums, I could see where it could certainly be helpful in training. . . and also just plain interesting to see what sensations your body has in conjuction with various readings.

Hey Triton, I've a pulse oximeter I got from Eric Fattah at Liquivision. Highly recommended. Also - training wise. I've recently acquired a Finis Front mount snorkel. This has resulted in me adding 30-50 surface lengths to my pool workout with the mono fin. I mostly do these on my side - switching off at each length - and it's really fun in addition to cranking the cardio. But!! I suggest you try surface lengths - but do them face down. Do them with your knees locked by raising your rear out of the water. Pay attention to the transition where the backstroke turns into a kind of 'diving in' forward contraction of the solar plexus turning into the downstroke. This is a bit easier on the surface.

 

[Triton1715]

Thanks for the pointers Fondueset! I've had the Liquidvision Oximeter webpage up off and on for over a year now. I think I just needed a "push" to pull the trigger on it. The new fin along with your recommendation finally did the trick and I bit the bullet and purchased one. I honestly don't know why it took me so long. . somethings I can hem and haw on for ages. Just needed that last little shove in the right direction.

Monofin technique is definitely going to be something that I'll have to work at a while. Thank you very much for the training advice. I've got a question for you about this though, but I'm going to post it on the Dolfinism thread as it pertains directly to the X-22.

 

[HydroApprentice]

Well, there's actually quite a cheap alternative out there for the pulse oximeters. I just ordered one off dealextreme.com, they're around 20 bucks a pop and the delivery is free. It may take 2 weeks, but hey... I got mine yesterday and it works just fine. I doubt that I will be able to use it seriously during the coming weeks/months, but that's not the point in buying gadgets, right?

 

[Fondueset]

Well, there's actually quite a cheap alternative out there for the pulse oximeters. I just ordered one off dealextreme.com, they're around 20 bucks a pop and the delivery is free. It may take 2 weeks, but hey... I got mine yesterday and it works just fine. I doubt that I will be able to use it seriously during the coming weeks/months, but that's not the point in buying gadgets, right?

Nice prices on those, HydroApprentice!

 

[Triton1715]

Well, there's actually quite a cheap alternative out there for the pulse oximeters. I just ordered one off dealextreme.com, they're around 20 bucks a pop and the delivery is free. It may take 2 weeks, but hey... I got mine yesterday and it works just fine. I doubt that I will be able to use it seriously during the coming weeks/months, but that's not the point in buying gadgets, right?

I thought about that too and looked into a few of them. In fact, I can run down to our local grocery store's pharmacy and pick up one for $50-60. However, I'm the type of guy that hates messing around with poor equipment and have been burned often enough on "cheap" things that I prefer to buy the better one knowing it will last longer and be more accurate. I found this quote from Eric Fattah in a thread where he introduced the oximeter and had a similar response:

"If you read our website, it describes in detail how you can use it to improve your training. And by the way, when you buy stuff off ebay you get no customer support and no warranty. But you are welcome to.

We selected this particular oximeter because it tracked a $6000 Masimo Radical oximeter very closely, unlike most fingertip oximeters which showed enormous errors despite claims in their specifications."


I've heard others on the forum complain about errors and slow update times so I thought I'd bypass the headache and get a "sure thing"

Nonetheless, I really appreciate the advice! Thank you for suggesting it especially for any others that may be eyeing one, but a feeling a bit pinched as of late.

 

[HydroApprentice]

Hi Triton,
Thanks for the heads up! You are 100% right about what you're saying about using quality material where performance is concerned. But in my case, I just wanted to get a an idea what's happening during a breathhold. What's nice about the cheapo-thing, I can see how they're build and mess around with the hardware without risking too much

 

[diddavetellyou]

hi Triton,

I am by no means an expert and anyone fell free to correct me but in response to your very first comment, the club I dive with in Brighton have an exercise that we do that might be a step in the right direction for what you are trying to achieve. We call it an oxymoron as it is counterintuitive or moronic; basically it is to do a short static at the start of your dive before duck-diving and doing your dive as normal or usually for longer than normal

You do your standard breath up whatever it is; none, 6 in 12 out, mediative breathing. then you put your face in the water relax go limp and do a short static while you wait for your MDR to kick in and drop your heart rate. the length of time will vary on all the usual factors; your state of mind, fitness, hydration, tension, water temp, how comfortable you are, how many dives you have already done etc. you might use you pulse oxymeter during training to get a handle on how long this is for you and learn to feel it with practice.

I have only been able to really notice my own HR once. We did some heavy cardio (sprint lengths) followed quickly by a static, I could hear my pulse in my ears and feel it in my chest and after only about 20-25 seconds of it remaining high I could feel and hear a considerable drop in HR.

My understanding from what i have read on the course I did and on deeper blue is that once the MDR kicks in the body goes into a kind of survival mode; blood shift, vasoconstriction, reduced HR etc. and this means that the body uses the available O2 more efficiently. by doing nothing in the initial period before this has happened you don’t waste O2 meaning that there is more left in your blood for a longer dive.

My girlfriend went for being able to do 15-20m DNY to 15sec static then 25m length oxy-moron the first time see tried them, which was only her second ever freediving lesson.

There might also be a conditioning element to this as well. Some say you should keep your pre dive routine the same so that your body gets used to it and just doing your breath up can have physiological effect on your body. If you included a short static into you routine for every dive you body might learn to get into that state quicker?

hope that helps and on the equipment side of the thread I would suggest you get the most expensive product you can it is usual more accurate and you are less likely to surpass its capabilities and need to buy another more expensive one.

“buy right or buy twice”

unless you are like hydroapprentice and want to hack it, then get the cheapest you can probably two and start probing



diddavetellyou


_________________


have drybag will travel.