Too Deep, Too Often, Too Soon?

[cdavis]

Ricki,

Ebay is a good source for this kind of thing, at deep discounts off retail. Just make sure the model has a common and cheap battery and is little used.

The Dacor is not supposed to be nearly as good a scooter as a Mako or particularly a Gavin, but the one I tried (Jon's) seemed pretty fabulous to me. Given how long he's had it and used it, it must be a pretty tough machine.
There has been a fair amount of negative comment about Seedoos on these boards.

Good luck looking.

Connor

 

[Jon]

My father-in-law has a Gavin, great scooter but way too expensive, and he owned a Frallon before that. I've used both of those as well as the Makos and Tekna's. The Mako is a nicely balanced unit, but it costs too much more, compared to the Dacor/Apollo, to ever make me think of buying one. The Tekna needs to be balanced out with PVC tubes to make it trim out correctly. i also am not sure if you can even get parts for the Teknas anymore. I thought that George was giving partital trade in credit for a Tekna scooter toward the purchase of a new Gavin- he rewinds the motors and puts them in the Gavin's.

The one nice thing about my scooter, over the more expensive ones, is that the battery changes out in less than a minute. I have two main batteries and two more, older ones, in reserve. I can run the thing all day long. Some of my buddies owned other scooters of similar size, i think it was an Aeris and a Mako, and you needed a screw driver to change out the battery- too much trouble.:head

I've seen used Dacor/Apollos go for around $700- $1,000 on Ebay and that seems to be about the best "bang for the buck" from everything I've seen and used.

Now, if money wasn't an issue I'd rush out and buy one of those X-scooters that Longfins has. That thing is powerful and tiny!:inlove The cost is a bit high, but they have some very cool accessories- like a built in video camera!

Has far as safety goes, I have never had any kind of vertigo problems in the 10+ years I've used mine for freediving. I have hit my head on shipwrecks with it- going full blast in less than perfect vis, and I even impaled myself on a tree up in wazee once- search through the old threads and you'll find pictures of it.:head The big issue is not going too fast for the vis you dive in. I ended up dialing my speed back a bit this past week when I was diving up north. It seemed a bit safer and I actually saw more going a little bit slower in that level of vis.

Jon

 

[ricki]

Thank you for the input on potential scooters Conner and Jon. Sean, it's the way it goes sometimes. I am reminded of the time I was running a Remora wetsub with a 220 V 40 A power umbilical running to a generator on the surface. You lay on this thing and I looked down and saw this interesting bubbling glowing arc about 2 inches in diameter a few inches from my stomach. The power coupling had pulled out exposing wires but was still tethered by a line. Cutting it free was interesting. Gadgets will act up at times. It make take a bit of time but I hope to find something in the not too distant future. The weight, burn time, speed and certainly the price of the Explorer are ideal, even when compared with some more costly DPV's. The poor QA/QC is a killer though, too bad.

I had a Tekna that I liked very much but you can't rebuild old stuff forever unfortunately. I think the Apollo might be the way to go, hope to rent one this weekend with the funky seat. Will be interesting to have both hands free for a change. The X-scooter does look intriguing too, and pricey as you say.

I just received a lightweight, low drag helmet to evaluate for kitesurfing. I may have to see how it does for scooter free diving around confined spaces and wrecks too.

Rick

 

[ricki]

Here is an interesting question regarding the Oceanic Geo deco meter. I had done about eight scooter dives ranging from 60 to 125 ft. at which point I heard an alarm. I was shooting video during the dive so I caught the gage face below. It is the "High Nitrogen" alarm. Bottom times were typically on the order of 1.5 to 2 minutes. Surface intervals were usually five to ten minutes or longer. I surfaced, stayed there for about ten minutes at which time the alert cleared from the gage. I did about five more dives with minimum ten minute surface intervals with no other gage issues or alerts. I had been scooter diving in a similar fashion about 48 hours previously without incident and hadn't been SCUBA diving in several weeks.

I spoke to Oceanic tech support about this wondering about the algorithmic basis for the alert. The fellow was uncertain about that aspect but said he would look into it and get back to me after vacation. He did say the intent is to have the diver surface, wait for a sufficient interval before resuming diving and was not an indication of the immediate need for decompression or immanent DSC. Still, it makes me wonder particularly about avoiding repetitions. Any ideas out there?

BTW, I got to use the Apollo AV-2 Evolution dive scooter with the seat attachment. It is an excellent system allowing not only hands free operation but also very easy maneuvering just from minor fin placement. It actually modifies how you move UW in a real positive way. I could see the seat displacing use of conventional scooter directional controls, handles, bridals, etc. for free diving anyway. This allows not only easy equalization but even filming if you are of a mind to do this in addition to precise, simple directional control. The speed was good as was the battery duration (with the expensive Ni-MH battery pack).

I was thinking some form of a leash-kill switch might be a good idea. Separating from a powered DPV is conceivable during a dive. That would likely result in the scooter spiraling off into the deep, with you slogging towards the surface. Use of a static leash could result in you being hauled off somewhat out of control, not good either. Anyway, I was thinking it would be good to develop a leash that loops into the seat housing and in turn attaches to the seat speed control lever. "Ideally" if you separate from the scooter, the leash is tensioned and the power control is pulled back to "off." You would want a reliable quick release on the leash just in case things failed to work as intended. I noticed a side benefit of using the scooter. When you surface just keep the scooter engaged. This makes doing initial recovery breathing even easier than normal. With all that maneuverability AND the absence of a scooter in front of you, extra care during operation and use of a reasonable helmet make good sense. Simply hitting bottom or a coral head is possible with even more objects to bounce off of in a higher profile reef or wreck. Finally, carrying a reasonable pony bottle seems like an appropriate precaution in scooter diving. You shouldn't notice the drag all that much and in deeper dives, it could make an important difference in a power failure.

 

[ricki]

It doesn't focus strictly on safety but there is a video about some recent scooter free diving along one of the Cayman Walls at:

[ame=http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=92]Something Rich And Strange ... Diving Tales From The Water Underworld - FKA Kiteboarding Forums[/ame]

 

[harbour seal]

ricki,

great video! thanks for posting the link.

i would like to see more shots of you using the scooter as i have never seen a seat in use (or the hands free method). i couldn't really see the set-up you are using in the latest movie.

beautiful blue colour of the water down there. i am used to our emerald green water around these parts.

cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada

 

[ricki]

Thanks Sean. I have some closer better resolved still shots of one of the safety divers and I probably have some clearer video as well of that aspect. I will process some stuff showing a closer view of the scooter in operation with the saddle and will put it up.

Yes, no end of blue down there. A bit too much for the little camera and editing software. Still, you get a fuzzy idea of motoring along the wall.

Rick

 

[ricki]

ricki,

great video! thanks for posting the link.

i would like to see more shots of you using the scooter as i have never seen a seat in use (or the hands free method). i couldn't really see the set-up you are using in the latest movie.

beautiful blue colour of the water down there. i am used to our emerald green water around these parts.

cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada

Hello Sean,

I grabbed some more still shots and a screen capture of the seat. I did most of the shooting during the dives and only had two free dives of video footage shot by the safety free divers. So, this limits the available video of the scooter itself in action. Anyway the additional content is up at:

[ame=http://fksa.org/showthread.php?p=23182]Cayman Wall By Scooter - Video - FKA Kiteboarding Forums[/ame]

 

[ricki]

I spoke to Kirk Krack yesterday for a considerable time about deeper scooter free diving. I received a lot of good information and insights about the activity, possible hazards, past experiences, precautions and the like. I plan to put this information into an article on deep scooter diving in the near future.

I had some concerns about possible unexpected issues with resorting to emergency compressed air at depth, say around 150 ft.. I was thinking more in terms of unusual lung issues perhaps. He mentioned that he would expect some sudden, possibly intense nitrogen narcosis. The impact might be more severe on divers who hadn't much experience with narcosis in recent times. This never occurred to me but it makes sense. I've been well below that depth many times but always on compressed gas and never have gone down on a breath hold dive and returned on compressed air. Kirk had a number of concerns about casually carrying emergency compressed air.

I imagine some on the forum have done this whether by free immersion or sled, maybe even with a scooter. What effects did you experience related to narcosis or anything else noteworthy?

Thanks!

 

[ricki]

I was hoping to change the title of this thread to something more generic like scooter diving safety considerations but that option is turned off in this forum. The following really doesn't bear upon DCS issues.

Anyway, I became more acutely aware of a few safety considerations involving scooter diving this weekend. There was no useable wind in the forecast for kitesurfing but appeared to be more or less ideal for diving in SE Florida, light and offshore from the SW. Went to the Spiegel Grove off Key Largo yesterday expecting 100 ft. plus vis. but ended up with something around 30 ft. more or less and 1 to 2 kt. current. The deck of the Grove ranges from around 60 to 70 ft. and there are some significant obstacles/entanglements, derricks, some lines, etc.. The last time I was there, viz. was 80 to 100 ft. with no current. It was about the same the time before that as well with more current. I was looking forward to shooting some interesting video this time around. Got the video (stay tuned for that) but the dive wasn't quite what I expected.

Even with current as long as you can see far enough ahead to avoid being swept into hard objects or entanglements it isn't that bad. Not so easy in this case, once you eventually saw the wreck you sometimes didn't have long to think about what you would do to avoid hitting something. Even if you weren't knocked out, you would likely lose the scooter spinning off into the haze (I was using a sit on top Evolution scooter, your head hits first!). Not a good prospect. Doing a down current turn would really make things interesting if objects were nearby as you would really accelerate. After a short time, the "Vietnam of Scooter Diving" started to come to mind. Not a lot of fun and a bit too hazardous. Stayed shallow on the dives around deck level or less and cut the number short.

I suspect lots of guys on here would be thrilled with that much viz at their normal spots still running too fast with insufficient visibility may translate to most locations. In short if there is strong current and poor visibility I wouldn't recommend scooter free diving. You can do it but the hazards and unease can easily exceed the benefits of doing it. Better luck next time and I will be sure to get a more reliable idea of probable visibility in advance!

Just put the video of scooter free diving the Speigel Grove at: [ame=http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=92]Something Rich And Strange ... Diving Tales From The Water Underworld - FKA Kiteboarding Forums[/ame]

I didn't think the images would come out but they did, sort of. If it was 100 ft. plus as I had expected it would have been a pretty incredible clip I think. Next time!

 

[ricki]

There is another video of poorer quality, used a weaker camera, the day before the Speigel Grove. This one was on the wreck of the Rodeo off Pompano Beach in about 130 ft. of water. There was still a good current and viz. was less than would be expected normally given conditions. The cautions about free diving with a scooter in poor viz. and stronger currents still hold. Had I a more reliable idea about conditions off Key Largo the next day, would have passed waiting for more ideal conditions for both free diving and shooting video.

[ame=http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=92]Something Rich And Strange ... Diving Tales From The Water Underworld - FKA Kiteboarding Forums[/ame]

 

[ricki]

This went up almost two years ago. That is a fair amount of time. What new things have people learned about DCS and free diving in that time? Any new ideas or information on DCS and scooter free diving?

Thanks!

 

[trux]

Well, not really scooter specific, but there are couple of threads here on DB with plenty of info and links regarding DCS at freediving. Sebastian Naslund has also a relatively new, and a nice article recapitulating most known facts about DCS at freediving. Check it out here: DCS and apnea

 

[ricki]

Thank you Trux, lots of thought provoking information in Sebastian's article, particularly the "ADVICE for the deeper freedivers:"

It is interesting that they are not providing O2 at depth due to potential certification inequities and in particular "we are also worried that directly going under again might hide a lot of symptoms that the medical and safety personell need to see if they occur, like DCS symptoms, squeeze symptoms and other unknown injuries."

So, in trying to avoid DCS symptoms using an O2 safety stop, they may mask them in some cases? Tricky.

The reason I asked about DCS issues specific to scooter free diving is the fairly easy repetition of deeper dives, perhaps more so than routinely feasible with free divers using fins. As was brought up by Eric here a couple of years back, Sebastian's advice to slow down ascents makes sense as well.