Do waist high pant allow deeper breaths than Long/Farmer Johns

[Gunnar]

Hi guys,

I am about to get my first freedive wetsuit so please excuse if I am asking basic questions, which are clear to most of you:

Doesn't a Long John put more pressure on your chest and therefore makes it harder get "the last few molecules" of air into your lungs.
Wouildn't waist high pants be better as in beeing able to breath a little deeper? In cold water I can imagine the waist high pants being a disadvantage of course.

Or is the increase in pressure on the chest so small that one does not even realize the difference?

Cheers
Gunnar

[rslomkow]

I don't think that high-waist vs. farmer john makes much difference for lung fill, cut and fit do far more than the style.

Many people actually find the high waist to be warmer! The main reason is fit. The farmer john tends to pull away from the skin in different positions as you change the distance between your crotch and your shoulders. The high waist doesn't get pulled so it is less likely to develop pockets for water to flow into.

The jacket still suffers from the folding problem as well but it is not as extreme because it can slide on the hips which are already covered by the pant so the water flow to your skin is less.

At least if you are going for an Elios freediver cut suit they recommend high waist over farmer john and most people I know with them are pretty happy with that setup. I could imagine other cuts having different tension points and may behave differently.

Also your shape matters too. If you are really as flat as a board the long john might be better, but the tension of going over the shoulder pulls the neoprene away from you if you have large breasts, chest, belly, shoulders, but.

[Gunnar]

Originally Posted by rslomkow

If you are really as flat as a board the long john might be better, but the tension of going over the shoulder pulls the neoprene away from you if you have large breasts, chest, belly, shoulders, but.

Dankeschön.
I just saw, that you are from München, I will still reply in English since this is an English speaking board.

As for the suit I plan on ordering, I guess it will be the Omer Master Pro. It has a Long John. Like most suits I have seen. It is one of not too many suits that a) met my budget and b) met my body size (192cm und 116kg).
So, no, I am not quite as flat as a board.
I think I will give the Master Pro a try anyways. In case I don't like it I will order a Elios suit for next year then.

Fondueset gave me some good advice and told me to check out Elios suits, too. But I will have to go with the cheaper alternative for the moment.

Cheers
Gunnar

P.S. How thick is your suit, do you dive it all year and in what water temperatures?

[rslomkow]

I am sure you will be happy with the suit if you have tried it on and it fits Fit is most important thing, beyond style, material or even a couple mm of thickness!

I would recommend most people buy a 5mm for European diving. I dive the whole year in a 3mm two piece Elios. Occasionally if diving in the Isar in the summer I will go with a 1 piece 3mm surf suit that I don't care if it gets torn to bits.

I am good for about 1 hour in 5C (41F) in my two-piece 3mm Elios.
But if diving exclusively long empty lung (FRC) dives I begin to feel some chill after 2 hrs in 20C (68F) in the same suit.

Last two weeks I was on Corsica diving 20-23C (68-73F) for about 3hrs at a time mostly in 12m (39feet). Would remain plenty warm the whole dive through. My dive buddy who gets cold much easier was also diving a 3mm custom suit and would be cold at the end of 3hrs.

I only lasted 2hrs in 23C (73F) without a wet-suit at all and found that near the end my dive times were declining and I tired out faster.

In Bavarian lakes last summer which varied from 10-16C (50-61F) (once you get under the first meter) I also found the suit fine for 2-3hrs. Same dive buddy that would get cold at the end of 3hrs in 20-23C uses a 5mm for this diving.

I have an exceptionally stocky build and am a bit overweight, I joke have a layer of bioprene (read FAT). This body type loses dramatically less heat than a long thin person (surface area to volume ratio). The difference in heat loss is exaggerated when you are physically active in the water because of increased blood flow through extremities. In addition I have a lot of experience swimming and diving in cold water, so I can "feel" comfortable and remain active with a lowered body temperature than some other people.

Water temperature tolerance is a very personal issue. Anything above 5mm tends to inhibit movement too much to be useful for general use, and it has larger buoyancy differences that can be unpleasant for freediving.

ps. I am an American who has been living in Germany for a number of years, but it is easier for me to write in English!

[Gunnar]

Great info, thanks a lot!

Dive safe.
Gunnar


P.S. I am a German who had been living in the States for a while, just the other way around.

[Bill]

Gunnar
Just a few comments on your original post. My Elios suit had a high waist that I didn't like so I cut the front below the rib cage. Very little difference but it feels better. I used cut a slit in my farmer john 6mm suits from the belly button to the top for the same reason. Don't be afraid to try something like this because it is easy to put them back together if it doesn't work.
'harder get "the last few molecules" of air into your lungs.'
I don't think it is worth the effort for a few molecules. Packing will increase your lungs quite a few molecules (less wasted energy and works well against pressure). Don't even start packing without the help of an instructor, imho.

[Gunnar]

Hi Bill,

I might run into problems with Long Johns because I have a pretty large chest. I am fearing that a Long John might restrain my breathing a bit since it has to stretch a lot over my chest.

I thought about cutting some pieces out of the suit or a slit into it. I wasn't sure if it were possible to repair the cuts with neo glue if i don't like it.
Hearing that it is no problem is great.

Dive safe.
Gunnar

[sunflower]

Hi Gunnar,
just a short additional hint for the Elios suits..

The cut of the high waist pants is different to these of the long johns - so it´s a big difference if you buy a high waist pant or just cut away the upper part.
I´m diving with a 6mm high waist pant and really love it it´s also a big difference to dress/undress compared with other´s (not that cold!!)

Elios commendates to use only suits less than 7mm for deep diving..

And at the moment it takes around 3 weaks for custom made suits.

(They do not pay me!)
Regards,
Andrea

[Gunnar]

Hi Andrea,

I did not intend to cut away the whole shoulder part. I thought more of a piece on the chest... or even glue a little v-shaped piece of neoprene in (that idea came just now as I was writing). I am of course aware that any adjustment done to the suit could make the suit fit even worse.

I best wait and see how the suit fits, maybe no adjustments will be necessary.

I keep hearing only the best about elios. And honestly I would love to have a custom suit. My budget just doesn't allow it at the moment.

Dive safe.
Gunnar

[rslomkow]

Gunnar what kind of diving do plan to do?

% SCUBA:
% Freediving:

Where do you dive?

How long do you dive?
How deep do you normally dive?

How much mobility do you need?
How cold do you get?

This will affect the wetsuit you need.

Also some basic pricing info from Elios from a year ago (Just so you realize that are not that bad). All wetsuits wear out with use.

Econoline (cheaper neoprene) Titanium lined 5mm Jacket & Pant 190€ (+30€ shipping)
The material that a bunch of us like: Heiwa medium density + Blackshadow coating 4mm Jacket & Pant 240€ (+30€ shipping).

The Elios prices are quotes from last year and do not include pads.

A 5mm Omer Master-Pro is around 170€ from an online discount retailer (scubastore). It is probably a nicer neoprene than the Elios-Econoline, but the difference in fit could make less warm and less durable (you will stretch and tear a wetsuit that doesn't fit as well faster) depending on your body type. I have never seen the Elios econoline material. I have Heiwa medium density 3mm, and I purchased a Heiwa medium density 4mm for my girlfriend for Christmas.

[Gunnar]

% SCUBA: 0
% Freediving: 100

Where do you dive? Mostly lakes auround Karlsruhe, Germany and vacations (Mediterranian)

How long do you dive? about 1:30min

How deep do you normally dive? 20-25m
How much mobility do you need? I don't know

How cold do you get? not very much, I have a layer of what you call "bioprene"

The store where I bought my other stuff sells the Omer Master Pro für 167€ including shipping (Simones-hammerladen.de). That was for me the deciding argument (a student's budget is permanently low). I guess for an Elios it would be around 100€ more.

Cheers
Gunnar

P.S. Very nice picture! *laugh*

[sunflower]

Originally Posted by Gunnar

How long do you dive? about 1:30min

I would guess they meant how long you stay in the water, not how long a single dive takes?!

[Gunnar]

Originally Posted by sunflower

I would guess they meant how long you stay in the water, not how long a single dive takes?!

Oh, I see.
I'd say up to two hours...

[scottwilson]

HAHA love the pic

[freedivechicago]

Gunnar,

I've had an off-the-shelf Omer 7 mm for a few years which has served me well. It was a farmer john style. At the PFI course this summer Kirk recommended modifying the pants to be high waist. I cut the top off leaving more than enough which I can cut down further if need be. I'm happy that I did this cuz two layers of neoprene on the chest area does make breathing harder and now I feel I can get a better breathup before diving. Just my 2 cents.

Jim