Elios suit for COLD waters, (newbie help)

[Svedberg]

Hey im really new to freediving and trying to decide what sort of suit i should get.
Waters here are really cold and i want a suit that is durable enough for "normal" movement, climbing bridges etc to get out of water and such.
Would this do the job?
7mm HEIWA or NEOFLEX, Open cell /Nylon elastic outside.
With long john pants but what about the jacket, anything negative about having a zipper?

Should i get a more durable outside?


Also under "accessories" you can fill in socks, gloves etc...in "mm" how do i measure for the gloves?


Sorry if i missed any obvious information that would have made it easier.

[Jon]

7mm Heiwa

Opencell inside- get a coating if you want

Nylon outside- fairly strong

Waist high pants- optional 2mm vest if you want

NO zipper- lets in too much water

Hood attached to suit

Custom cut if you can- not really that much more money

3-finger mitts in 4mm-5mm

5mm socks if you can fit them in your fins

Jon

[cdavis]

An idea to pursue if you are getting a custom suit: get the top in smooth skin, no nylon. Its much warmer once you are topside (drys very fast) and at 6 mil or thicker is quite durable. If you like the concept, pm Fondueset, who swears by such a rig. The maniac dives with icebergs in a 6 mil. I wore his for a week and found it just fine for fairly rough diving.

Good luck

Connor

[Jon]

What Conner said is a great idea.

I use a smoothskin 6mm, top and bottom, for all of my winter (ice) diving. The jacket has held up great over the past 5 years, but the pants have a couple of small tears- that I re-glued and dove the next day in.

I had a smoothskin, top and bottom, 3mm that blew a part pretty quickly, but the 6mm suit has really held up. My, current, 3mm suit is a smoothskin top with nylon pants. It works out very well- even for spearing and climbing over rocks.

Smoothskin dries MUCH faster in winter time. On ice dives the nylon absorbes some water and forms little ice sheets on the suit. The smoothskin dries very fast and any ice that forms flakes off pretty quickly- if there's any kind of wind it dries even faster.

If you have on a wet nylon suit in the wind you will cool down more quickly, through transpiration, than with smoothskin. We tell all of the scuba students, and new charter boat divers, to peel their nylon suits off between (scuba) dives to rewarm. Those that stay in the (wet) wetsuits between dives usually freeze out pretty fast during the next dive.

Jon

[Svedberg]

Great answers, thanks both of you.
But why not get Longjohn pants? from what i understand that will give me 7mm more suit over the torso? Some swedish divers recommended that i think.
Coating on the inside will make it colder thou? Are there any other positive things about inside coating beside that it will make it easier to slip into, more durable?

When your icediving in your 6mm suit how long can you stay in?
And are there any easy solutions to getting feet warmer, my fins cant fit much more than a 2mm sock and i havnt found any bigger fins(48, beuchat mundial competition), are there any "super" socks wich is warm enough even at 2-3mm?

[salibandy]

I think if there were super socks there'd be super wetsuits as well.

Coatings aren't necessarily less effective at retaining heat. Much of the heat loss when wearing a coating is that when water gets in between your skin and the coating, it makes the suit even more slippery, thus water moves in and out and makes you cold. Now if you put on the coating dry, it counters that and no water will get in.

I'm also pretty sure that you wouldn't want to put on an open cell suit during the winter with the wind blowing and the temperature being so low. The coating makes the suit easier to put on dry.

Heiwa is tough material. And at 6mil, I would think it's indestructable. Hell, my 3mil Heiwa IS indestructable. Go for Heiwa. I think you'd like it.

[kjflyfish]

Svedberg, I'm in the same position as you are - I am cold in my 5mm Oceanos suit (long john pants, tradtional hooded jacket, open cell inside, nylon out).

I just ordered an Elios 7mm Heiwa smoothskin jacket and 5mm nylon long john pants (both open-cell inside). I also went custom fitted. The guys at Elios are great to deal with and I'm confident this will be a great wetsuit for winter diving.

[cdavis]

Svedberg,

Never used a farmer john open cell, but my understanding is that the tension from the shoulders keeps it from sticking to the body as well as a high waist suit. General consensus is that high waist is warmer than farmer john in an open cell. A better solution is a vest. Immersion makes one (pm JimDoe2you for it) that works great for me. You can put a vest on with no lube and that one sticks like glue.

Connor

[kjflyfish]

Connor, long john pants work, and will be warmer than the same pant in waist-high, for the same reason that adding a vest will be warmer (extra rubber over the torso). The key to any wetsuit is fit. If you get one that doesn't fit properly, of course it will allow water intrusion.

One huge advantage to waist-high pants is that you can pull them down for an "aqua-deuce" and still keep your jacket on.

I do agree with you that Jimdoe2you is a great guy to deal with.

[Steinar]

When your icediving in your 6mm suit how long can you stay in?
And are there any easy solutions to getting feet warmer, my fins cant fit much more than a 2mm sock and i havnt found any bigger fins(48, beuchat mundial competition), are there any "super" socks wich is warm enough even at 2-3mm?[/quote]


I use a Elios 6mm haiwa suit for 45 minutes in 0 C water. It was much warmer than i had expected. I think that the most important factors in staying warm is, not getting cold when suiting up and weather conditions. A nice sunny day i March is far better then a windy day i January.

Im looking forward cuting that nice triangle in the ice

[Whopperhead]

We also do some Ice dives here in Wisconsin- Last time we were in the water for about 2 hours (0c= 32f) there are a few things we try when ice diving- one is putting RAW Coconut oil in our food- hours before diving. This goes to your kidneys and makes your body work to burn the oil and raises your body temp. (i believe) - If anyone finds a 2 or 3mil sock that keeps there feet warm- let us know! We use 5mil

[Jon]

Try using an openheel freediving fin as they have larger footpockets and should allow you to use a 5 or 6mm sock. Esclapez makes a nice one. It won't be quite as high perfomance as a standard fin, but sometimes warmth matters more than performance.

You can also bring along a thermos of warm water and pour it into your socks and mitts as they start to get too cold.

Jon

[Fondueset]

RAW coconut oil!! Hydrogenated oil will kill you eventually so make sure its RAW. .(I usually have a bowl of Oatmeal with honey, raw coconut oil and sometimes Ghee about 45 minutes before a winter dive - also drink plenty of water. I usually bring along a mixture of lime juice, water and honey.)

I've been diving several times a week all winter for a couple of years - water - temp 1 or 2c - air quite a bit colder, wind, blizzards, waves etc. etc. As Connor mentioned I mostly have used a 6 mil smoothskin out top and 5 mil bottoms with superstretch nylon out - not farmer johns. I had elios make me a 1.5 mil titanium lined vest which I can use under any of my suits - it does help reduce any water circulation and does not restrict breathing like a farmer john.


My suits are black shadow neoprene with the new black coating inside. I don't think it really makes much difference though in terms of putting on and taking off. I have a plain open cell suit and I think its actually easier.

Last year I used a 5 mil smoothskin out suit with the 1.5 vest under it and was fine all winter. Before I got my 6 mil I used a 5 mil open cell/superstretch nylon out suit all winter and was fine too - just not for quite as long. I generally go for anywhere from 90 minutes to 3 hours. A henderson ice mask will do a lot to help you stay warm if you don't mind being insulated from the environment. I used to use one but quit a couple of years ago. My dive buddy uses one and its really embarrassing.

I use a monofin for all my diving and in the winter I do fin sprints whenever I get cold - and generally have a more active style of diving because long, stationary breath holds will get you very cold very fast.

In really cold weather I drive to the site with my suit on rather than expose myself to the cold before diving . If you get a chill before diving you'll never recover. These suits are easy to put on and take off if you use enough lube - the only linings that make a difference are fabric and they greatly reduce the thermal efficiency of the suit. In air the combination of the suit with a good windbreaker and wind pants is very warm.

My suggestion is 5 or 6 mil open cell bottoms (not farmer john) with nylon out and a 5 or 6 mil open cell top with smoothskin out combined with a 1.5 mil vest (mine is titanium in/nylon out). Get a freediving suit - forget about zippers. You've got to be careful with the smoothskin out top - use plenty of lube.

Jon is actually the one who turned me on to this whole winter freediving thing. He talked me into a 6 mil instead of a 7 - now I mostly use a 5

I discovered the importance of smoothskin on the outside diving with Eric F, Pete S. and Tyler Z in BC - they were all way warmer than me in their smoothskin suits (I used a 5 mil superstretch out). The heat wicking in air is really significant.

In the first video on my site the water temp is approximately 3C and I am wearing a 5 mil open/smooth suit.

[Jon]

I use a 6mm Elios smoothskin opencell rubber suit. It's their cheapest suit they make, but I bought it custom for extra warmth. The opencell is a bit harder to put on than the blackshadow lining I have on my summer suit, but they didn't have black shadow when I bought this suit and it's held up pretty well over the years- going on its 6th winter and still holding strong.

I have smoothskin on both my pants and jacket and it makes a big differenc ewhen the wind is blowing- dries the suit off fast instead of sucking heat away from your body like a nylon lined suit will.

It's a high waisted suit to allow eaiser breathing and I have a 2mm vest that I can wear underit, but have never needed to, even on the coldest days, so it stays at home and on ly gets used under my 3mm.

When it gets really cold out I take my fins off and swim no-fins. i have found this the easiest way to stay wamr as there are no pressure points on my feet anywhere and I end up using my arms so the blood stays flowing. This might impede the dive reflex a bit, but warmth is more of a concern than maximum bottom times when the temps drop below 0F.

6mm socks and 5mm 3-figer mitts help out quite a bit. I used to use a Henderson Ice mask under my hood with my older, stock, suits, however, since I bought a custom suit I find that I no longer need this.

I use the raw coconut oil on toast, or in oatmeal, before diving in the winter time. I find that it makes a difference and thank Eric fattah, Laminar, and Fondueset for turning me onto it. I've heard that you can use MTC as well, but as Whopperhead will tell you, "a little bit goes a long way". Any more than that and you'll spend your dive time in the bathroom.

Jon

[Whopperhead]

Originally Posted by Jon

I've heard that you can use MTC as well, but as Whopperhead will tell you, "a little bit goes a long way". Any more than that and you'll spend your dive time in the bathroom.

Jon

Not to mention it taste horrible! If anyone would like to try some- I have a Life time supply sitting in my cupboards