02 / CO2 tables - Effective or a waste of time?

[laminar]

Now that I have your attention

Do 02 and CO2 tables work for you? More specifically, after being able to complete the tables at a certain threshold did you find your max static time increase as well as expected?

You can select more than one option in the poll.

And by tables, I mean:
O2- recovery breathing interval stays the same, while the apnea time increases
C02- recovery breathing interval decreases, while the apnea time stays the same

How do you feel about doing tables? Are they enjoyable? Do they give you a sense of satisfaction? Or are they a pain, something to do because there doesn't seem to be any other way to improve your time? Or are they torture?

When you do a max attempt, do you do a table first, or do you complete a different preparation?

If you didn't use them, what method did you use to achieve your personal best (dry or wet)?

Many thanks,

Pete

 

[naiad]

I do O2 and CO2 tables and max statics. I am not doing any other training at the moment. These are the only things that make a difference for me in static. If I do a lot of these, my static time improves a lot, and it is much easier. My dynamic distance only improves if I do dynamic training, but I have never found anything that produces dramatic results.

Lucia

 

[Waterenthusiast]

A year ago i was training regulary on a bike doing heavy CO2 Work (40s hold/8s breathing for 45min). Beside the strong headache that had gone away after a few times practicing, nothing really happened in terms of adaptation to long breathholds. Even the occurence of my first contraction was not delayed, so i stopped this kind of training. Maybe it sounds old fashioned but i think relaxing and specific training, is the way to go. Remembers me of the thread on first hold max attempts, anyone still going with this approach (beside Tom Sietas ) ?

Christophe

 

[penguinator]

Iv been doing a fair bit of those tables, mixed with some walks for general all-round improvements, but I have not yet done any max statics or regular diving yet (no budy!) but I will get back to this thread by Monday when I finally get to go max.

 

[Ol Dirty Diver]

I've yet to try the O2/CO2 tables, but intuitively, to me, it seems like they serve only to train your mind, rather than cause any adaptations in your physiology. I would think that much greater gains in static apnea (and apnea in general) would result from actually manipulating your physiology (i.e., increasing cardiac output, reducing resting heart rate, etc.), which entails cardiovascular work such as exercise. I am not able to keep track of this forum nearly enough, so I miss the majority of posts, but it doesn't seem like many users post much about the exercise aspect of apnea training, which leads me to believe that many do little or none. Perhaps not enough value is placed on the exercise side of apnea training?

I just remember reading somewhere that 90% of freediving training occurs out of the water (maybe in Pipin's book "The Dive"?), the implication being that most of the training is in the form of cardiovascular work. I have taken this for what it's worth and faithfully rely on it for my own freediving training. I'm still a total newbie at freediving, but have made some admirable strides in less than a year of doing it seriously (depth PR = 120ft; static PR to be determined soon), with almost no apnea-specific work. I attribute part of my success (a relative term in the midst of you guys) to my regular and sometimes rigorous cardiovascular training, which I do because I am a dedicated triathlete (Olympic distance PR = 1:59). For some reason I am confident that if my fitness level is much higher than most other divers', I'll be able to freedive better than them.

Of course one might argue that apnea is anywhere from 50 - 90% mental, so that more focus should be placed on the mental side of training (such as the tables). It was mentioned that the use of tables was a way to progress in the face of a wall, but I would advocate that an additional and perhaps more effective solution would be to work on increasing your fitness. I have no doubt that if you could lower your resting heart rate by 5bpm, your cardiovascular system would be more efficient and you'd be able to hold your breath longer.

I have a feeling that if you took an elite endurance athlete (like Lance Armstrong), with his incredible fitness and work ethic, and taught him the mental tricks of apnea...the existing static world record would come down in a hurry. Dynamic and freediving records, on the other hand, would not be instantly displaced because of the technique work involved in them. But I recall seeing a movie in which a former elite Ironman athlete, [SIZE=-1]Topi Lintukangas, was making a 60m CWNF dive with excellent form (due to his swimming background). At that time he was supposedly setting the world record. I wonder how long he was freediving before achieving this? In any case, his exceptional fitness background must have been largely conducive.

Any thoughts?
[/SIZE]

 

[trux]

In our club (Cyrnéa, Lyon), we do two wet static training sessions a week + two dynamic ones. Novices only do one of each per week. We have 3 AIDA instructors and 3 another FFESSM instructors in the club, and each of them has slightly different aproach, so the training sessions vary. However, we do either a CO₂or O₂tables almost always (mostly both).

Their positive effect can be seen very well both at novices, as well at competitors. It is true though that the progress cannot be attributet to the physiological effect of the tables only - there are many more aspects playing role, of course too.

The sessions are usually quite hard, but still very relaxing, and bringing satisfaction, since you can well observe your progress. It is nothing even remotely comparable to dry static training - it is much less boring (also because you do it in a team), and much more relaxing. Personally, I love the wet static trainings (rarely train dry), but it is true that there are many members in the club who avoid the static training altogether.

 

[laminar]

Christophe - I would guess one of the reasons your sets didn't do much was because you would never get close to being hypoxic. Also the intervals would be too short. For a long time I tried "exhale apnea stairmaster," in which I would exhale and then "climb" on the stairmaster at close to the highest level of difficulty for 20 seconds and then recover for 10-15 seconds. In the end, I became very proficient at this exercise. I could do it for 30 minutes without stopping. Even with exhaling, I built up so much CO2, I don't think I ever got hypoxic enough to make it an effective stimulus. Also, the specificity was all wrong. Getting lots of C02 contractions on empty lungs - never gonna happen in a competition breath hold. Later I switched to simulated dive intervals. Inhale - hold for 1'30" to simulate a baseline 60m dive, then cycle at a rapid enough pace for 1'00 - 1'20" to simulate the ascent. Then I'd rest for 2-3 minutes and do it again, eventually increasing the descent and ascent phases. This worked amazingly well. Much more specific.

Kurt - You touch on good points. My reason for asking about the effectiveness of tables was based on a hunch that it provided a feasible way to progress and was psychologically less daunting then the proposition of holding your breath as long as possible every time, which is, in fact rater daunting at times. But I wonder how effective it is as a physiological training technique. I also feel it is primarily psychological. If so, that's fine, because relaxation, especially during the hypecapnic stage, is so important.
However, to get really good at static, I believe that most people will need to enter into extreme discomfort at some point in their training. It's a basic tenet of training - the stimulus has to be stressful enough to simulate a change in physiology. Your point about elite athletes is a perfect example. Sure they could probably all do well at static apnea, but someone like Lance Armstrong has been through a lot of agonizing training throughout his career and his body has made adjustments. I don't think mental training alone can lead to Tom Sietas' accomplishments - unless you achieve yogi advances (which arguably are even more torturous for the person who isn't prepared).

Trux- Thanks for sharing what the club does. I've noticed that the French team often had a way of training as a group that is just not done in North America. So much so that it seemed almost like a team sport mentality, versus the personal best centric approach.

Pete

 

[SanderP]

I do tolerance tables every now and then, and they really do help to increase my max. BUT they're a big pain in the ass, I think it's frickin' boring to do them.

Why are you asking this anyway, Pete? Just wondering.

 

[naiad]

Do 02 and CO2 tables work for you? More specifically, after being able to complete the tables at a certain threshold did you find your max static time increase as well as expected?

Yes, they do work. My max static time has increased significantly since I started doing tables.

How do you feel about doing tables? Are they enjoyable? Do they give you a sense of satisfaction? Or are they a pain, something to do because there doesn't seem to be any other way to improve your time? Or are they torture?

I mostly like doing tables. I must be the only one. I can't say I like the last few minutes of a very hard table though.

When you do a max attempt, do you do a table first, or do you complete a different preparation?

I don't use tables as a preparation for max statics.

If you didn't use them, what method did you use to achieve your personal best (dry or wet)?

I do a few warm-up statics, usually two or three. These are quite long.

Lucia

 

[Waterysmile]

Originally Posted by laminar
Do 02 and CO2 tables work for you? More specifically, after being able to complete the tables at a certain threshold did you find your max static time increase as well as expected?

Yes, they do work. My max static time has increased significantly since I started doing tables. (Thanks Naiad)

Originally Posted by laminar
How do you feel about doing tables? Are they enjoyable? Do they give you a sense of satisfaction? Or are they a pain, something to do because there doesn't seem to be any other way to improve your time? Or are they torture?

I like CO2 tables because I only have to hold my breath for 2 minutes and only got contractions for the last 20 seconds of the last hold. O2 tables is a different kettle of fish. Today I had contractions for the last 1:20 of the final 3:15 and that is hard and not too nice.

Originally Posted by laminar
When you do a max attempt, do you do a table first, or do you complete a different preparation?

I don't use tables as a preparation for max statics. (Thanks Naiad)

Originally Posted by laminar
If you didn't use them, what method did you use to achieve your personal best (dry or wet)?

I used a hold, 2 exhale holds and then the main static to get 4 minutes.

 

[samdive]

I do CO2 tables and find them useful - mainly as a quick way to get in a training session that actually makes you work hard

I don't really see the point in O2 tables as all the evidence suggests that low O2 is not a trigger to breathe. They might I guess help with "samba management" - as in, how to do the Surface Procotol with v low O2.... but apart from that...

My max statics generally just come from doing lots of focussed max build up attempts - generally at least 3 holds getting longer each time with generous surface intervals. (at least 5 minutes before a long one)

 

[darrras]

Well, I find these tables extremally useful for me. In just 3 weeks of every day training with them, I was able to improve my PB from 5:56 to 6:30. I guess I like them in some way or, which is closer to the truth, I like doing anything that improves my statics. However in my max holds I don't use them at all. I just do 4-5 holds for 4 minutes and with 2 minutes breathtime, and after that I do my max static. I am also writing a little training logbook so I can observe and analise my improvements and failures.

 

[naiad]

I don't really see the point in O2 tables as all the evidence suggests that low O2 is not a trigger to breathe. They might I guess help with "samba management" - as in, how to do the Surface Procotol with v low O2.... but apart from that...

I do find O2 tables useful, because my tolerance to low O2 improves, so I can do longer before getting to the point of 'samba management'. rofl

I don't know the physiology behind O2 tolerance.

 

[GirlOfWater]

I don't have too much experience with the tables yet, but would like to do some more CO2. However I find that my statics increase DRAMATICLY after a period of depth training (which I don't get to do too often). It seems that somehow my body adapts, the contractions come later and my body saves more oxygen. (please excuse me if this is off topic...)

I have two examples of this: after 1-1,5 week of training in Dahab this summer, my statics went from 4.36 to 5.27. Then after training for about two weeks before the world championships in Hurghada (and only doing one real static max), it jumped again to 6.15. This is without ANY real static training, just depth. Also my shape was not the best the last time as I had been out of training for a month before. Can someone explain this to me? (don't get me wrong, I'm very happy about it! just want it to continue this way...)

I find it quite interesting how our bodies work differently and how we can adapt to this facinating sport

Elisabeth

 

[laminar]

Why are you asking this anyway, Pete? Just wondering.

Three reasons:

1. I'm updating my teaching materials and wanting to investiage all approaches to training, even the ones that don't seem to work for me.

2. I'm considering competing again this year (after three years off) and am looking to update my training.

3. I genuinely wonder if tables are the "best" exercise for getting better at static (any proof) or whether their strength is in helping people get used to holding their breath in a less stressful exercise. In my mind, to see even bigger results, you need training that is more intense and more specific than tables.

I'd be really curious to know of anyone who has set national or world records by relying on tables to advance them to the upper limits of their potential. Or whether they are used for some other purpose (relaxation, psychology).

My hypothesis is this:

Beginner to upper intermediate breath holders receive a noticeable benefit from tables for a variety of reasons.
Middle intermediate to advance breath holds receive little additional benefit from tables, because tables are not intense or specific enough to help them achieve a training effect that will benefit the combination of low O2 and high C02 for long periods of time.

I have not done a study, nor is this thread anything official. Mostly my hypothesis comes from observation and anecdotes and personal experience. I've seen a lot of freedivers use tables and get better. But those freedivers never really tried any alternative training methods related to static apnea that have worked for others.

I guess the problem we face in discussing this is that we are all on a sliding scale in terms of measuring results. We all have different physiologies that in part determine our limit. If someone achieves 8 minutes by using tables or some other method, that result is not necessarily proof that tables or the other method are the best.

:duh

Pete

 

[laminar]

Elizabeth,

How intense was your depth training? How close to max were your target dives?

Pete

 

[SEDATE]

me...
i do only max attempt 3 days a week!, that's all, i started with tables and only worked 2 months , i remember CO2 was very easy and 02 was very hard and i find out myself in a circle and turning around and remember i was only hit 15'' in a month i mean from 3:45' to 4:00' only 15'' and i said to myself it is impossible for you sedate your limit is 4' and beyond is imposible , go back home! i mean within a month i only increase my PB's 15'' it was terrific , and then i got some info from jome, tylerz ....and also asked Tom sietas by e-mail, using tables help or not!!!, he(tom) said i never use tables i only do max attempt , that's all
... decided to try will work or not? and the result came quickly , i find out max attempt is very easy i only give 20 min in a day and 5 days study 2 days recovery in a week(my programm) the result in a month and half jumped from 4' to 6:30'
beyond it is a long journey i know and need strong mental ability but i do not have it yet therefore i fixed my brain to learn ''ZEN'' it is a meditation way in apnea but i haven't got any info about it , i only know it is name ''zen'', that's all but i believe beyond 6:30' will come by ZEN, Best trick is to find what works for oursellf!
Pete, i wish i would have information about apnea and our own body like you !...

 

[jome]

All I can say is I support your hypothesis - but this should come as no surprise

I believe tables are a good and structured way for a beginner to learn alot of things about statics and may even serve a purpose to more advanced divers who are for example starting again after some time, to sort of get things going again. Especially for beginners it is very good that you have some concrete "method" to give them, because they usually don't yet know enough about finding their own or what ever and this get's them training. You can just tell them that do this, follow the simple instructions, and you will develop - and develop they will. They got you doing breath holds in series, which is good, they can help you keep it structured (ie you don't just say "nah, that's enough", but go "oh, I still have to finish this table"), they are an intuitive way to learn how warming up works...All great up to a point.

But I also firmly believe it is not the most effective method to progress, and especially that they should not be the only training one does for very long. Once one gathers enough experience it is important (IMO) not to be fixated about the tables - on any other one single method - but keep searching and trying new things. Usually in this point progress may be more about seconds than minutes and sometimes you even go backwards a little.

I don't think they do much "adaptation" physically, apart from short term co2 buffering, as we all know definately happens. It's more about mental things and learning routines etc. To get some adaptation going, I prefer close to max statics in either co2/o2 mode. Meaning max time (o2 - limited by samba) or max with no breathup/warmup (limited by co2 tolerance) - the latter I find both harder and more efficient.

Notice I use the word "believe" a lot - not "know", so this is mostly from personal and partly subjective experience.

I personally don't teach them. Or rather, I do usually mention that such and such exist, but I have my own trick bag that I try to persuade students to follow with my incredible charisma. As an end results they usually go and do things their way anyway Well seriously for a moment, if I can get a student searching, trying and figuring things out by themselves, my job is mostly done. I don't favor a very authoritarian teaching style (or life style in general), but try to emhasize everyone's own responsibility, iniative and resources. I give them the basics, naturally the safety, some tips and I answer when directly asked something, but don't hit them in the head with some "official truth" and leave some for them to figure out. Sometimes this works, sometimes not Hmm, I guess I kinda strayed off subject here, but since you mentioned teaching materials/methods.

Now, what am I doing writing in db at 3:45 am...This is getting sad

 

[samdive]

their strength is in helping people get used to holding their breath in a less stressful exercise

absolutely agree - and with the rest of your hypothesis laminar

I think tables have been relied on far too much in the last few years and it's telling that I don't see many freedivers beyond the beginner/intermediate level using them more than occasionally. Static seems to be a very personal thing - what works for one rarely works for another. I still reckon that the mental state for static is far more important than the physical. for some people, doing loads of tables makes them feel confident when they go for a max and therefore helps. Others feel confident when they have had a few days away from work and daily stress (which might explain Elisabeth's increases while on training weeks in Dahab/Hurghada). Others do well when they know they haven't eaten for a week or so (Sam Still!).....

Very interesting stuff though. It would be great to see real physiological research in to this.

 

[trux]

Personally, I believe in the positive effect of training tables - both psychological and physiological, but of course I do not know about any scientist research that would confirm or deny it.

There are multiple reasons why we mostly train tables and other exercises in our club instead of just max:

1. Security reasons - we definitely cannot and would not train max all in the same session. Advanced members are allowed to attempt a max at the end of the session, or to prolongate the last breath-hold of a hypoxic table to the max (which often happens), but normally we do not allow more than a single person per session to go for a real max performance. Once or twice a year we organize a max session, with increased security in place and time logistic similar to a competition.
   .
2. Time reasons - when doing tables and static or semi-dynamic exercises (static with some added physical effort), you can use the one hour of available training session time much better than when going for the max. The time you spend in hypercapnia, contractions, or close to hypoxia, and therefore the experience you and your body get from the session (hence also the possible physiological effect on the adaptation) is on my mind much higher when doing proper exercises, than when doing just max attempts. Especially if you add some empty lungs and semi-dynamic exercises, you can gain a lot of time.
   .
3. You can train selectively the technique, triggering the diving reflex, coping with hypercapnia and contractions, and with hypoxia, drilling proper way of relaxation, breath-up, packing, surfacing, drilling the surface protocol, etc - all that is much easier to drill in a focused way individually. Sure, as Jome and Laminar wrote, it may not be that important for the top freedivers who master all of the parts perfectly, but frankly told such cases are rather rare, and even the masters may profit from the focused training.
   .
4. With the selective training you can go actually even further in the specific trained area than you may be able to go in a max attempt where all the aspects are combined. So in focused training you can actually bring your organism into a higher and longer hypercapnia, contractions, or hypoxia than during a max. Hence I believe the effect of properly structured static session can be much better than that of a pure max session.
   .
5. You can actually train harder than with max. I definitely do not agree with the claim that you cannot train as hard with tables as during the max. If you think so, then you probably do not train the tables properly. Actually, training the tables is often much more difficult, and tiring than a max performance.

That told, we have only one member in our club who does static apnea over 7 minutes, so you can consider us all rather intermediate. Still even Fred Sarzier (who is the one - better told was, because unfortunately he moved to Nice and then to Paris this year), achieved his performance through intensive training of tables - I saw it happening last year - several times he broke his PB at the end of a hypoxic table (and the same happens to us all).