25 meters DNF in 1 armstroke cycle

[ggarrett]

I ended 2005 by swimming 25 meters in 1 armstroke cycle.

It went something like this more or less: wall-push off (11.5 m), body dolphin/glide (1.5 m), armstroke /glide (5.5m), body dolphin (1.5 m), kick(frog)/glide (3.5 m)- touch wall, body dolphin/glide (1.5 m), +/-35 seconds.

My competitive body dolphin is more of dolphin-flick to setup my arms and legs. The key is gliding almost to a stop. Turning to go 50 meters might be interesting since no momentum exists at the wall. Ah, there is always 2006 for that.

Peace

 

[commonerg]

Amazing garrett, I imagine your stroke and streamline are perfect to pull that off. Perhaps we have an Olympic caliber swimmer in our ranks? I think it's even more amazing that you are doing this at 57.

What do you find is your most efficient number and type of strokes for no fin dynamic? Do you always use the dolphin kick for recovery? What kind of weighting do you use for the 1 stroke 25? Any more tips? Any chance of a video?

 

[ggarrett]

Greg,

Perfect? always room for improvement and something new.
Olympic caliber? nope. senior olympics have no appeal either.
Going on 58...

Most efficient strokes and types for DNF: usually between 3 and 4 per length on either a maximum or just for fun. Type: glide, small body dolphin flick to set up armstroke, underwater breastroke with full arm pull to sides, glide, frog kick, glide. For what it's worth, I alternate face up and face down lengths.

Weight: for me at my age and body mass, 6 lbs- 6 ozs. makes me slightly bouyant with a full lungs. Like different strokes for different folks, different weights for different traits. After the holidays, I need a little more weight to offset my gains. Tip: I suggest adding weight until you find your negative bouyancy by pushing off a glide to a stop, then seeing if you go up or down. After knowing the negative bouyancy, lighten up a notch until slightly positive. You get less bouyant toward the end of a maximum.

Video: I don't know of anyone in Cheyenne with underwater video equipment. Buy if the opportunity arises, I will give it a shot.

Greg, let's hope that USAA stages a mainland competition this year. It would be great for you if they could do it in Florida or somewhere nearby. Hold your breath. Keep on keeping on.

In peace,
Glen

 

[commonerg]

Thanks for the tips Glen. No-Fin has always been my best discipline, and I think it's interesting that everyone seems to do it a little differently. For a long time, I always did my body dolphin along with my pull. In the last few months I've completely removed it because I found it wasn't benefiting me that much. I'm interested in your body dolphin before the pull. How does it help set you up for the pull? Do you only do it before the first stroke? Also, why do you alternate head position? I find keeping my chin near my chest puts my body in a good position. Why head up?

 

[commonerg]

And about that competition, I was really looking forward to the 2005 nationals. It was a little discouraging when nothing was planned. I have recently been looking into perhaps hosting a meeting sometime in 2006 or 2007 here in Atlanta. A lot of planning though...

 

[Walrus]

Hi Glen,
well done !
Covering 25m in the minimum strokes isn't usually the most efficient for a max but is fun just trying to see what you can do. I have done it in 2 'stroke cycles' I would count it as (1) push off (1) arm stroke, (2) kick, (2) arm stroke. That's with no dolphin, almost coming to a stop after each glide. But for a max I do it in 3 is much more efficient. As already mentioned in other posts, wearing more weight will increase the distance you get with the push off. With no wetsuit, full packing + 11 pound neckweight it takes me half a stroke less compared to no packing and a 4 pound neckweight. I have spent quite a bit of time practising no-fins, like Greg I have also dropped the dolphin kick. I don't find it that useful for dynamic, it can help give you some extra power on a depth dive if you are struggling to leave the surface or the bottom.

Also for those obsessed with minimum strokes you should think about body size and strength. I'm 189cm tall so doing 3 strokes over 25m may be a similar efficiency as someone shorter doing it in 4 strokes. Women would probably get a little less distance on the arm strokes due to less upper body strength, generally speaking.

P.S. I'm suprised you guys are training in 25m pools, spent a bit of time in California and Hawaii and most pools are the stupid 25 yard ones ?! :head


Cheers,
Wal

 

[ggarrett]

You guys are right. I re-examined my regular, multiple length DNF and my body dolphin is minimal or nonexistent as a cover greater and greater distances. However, when focusing on 25 meters lengths in minimal strokes, I get into arching my back just before an armstroke and then "climbing over" with the armstroke in a body dolphin. Sliding through the water feels good. For what it's worth, my stroke is 2/3 arms and 1/3 leg\kick whereas my lengths are 2/5 pushoff and 3/5 stroking.

As far as face up and face down lengths: I should have said "on my stomach" and "on my back." About five years ago when I first tried more than one length, it seemed to take less energy to roll backwards at the wall and push off facing upward. Then at the other end, back flip over. I came to enjoy looking at the ceiling every other length. I just like the variation.

Does 11 lbs of weight make you negative bouyant or do you still float up?

Also, if I can help you put together a competition from Wyoming, let me know. If you do, I will show up and enter. It seems like the minimal requirements for a competition are judges, a pool, and safeties. The closest judges might be in Florida. USAA may not sanction it because of the insurance thing. The folks in Hawaii pulled off a competition last year. I don't know if they did insurance. The other option is CAFA/Canada which is great place to visit. Keep holding your breath.

Lastly, as I reviewed your comments and after looking at my stroke cycle again, maybe I did my 25 meter length in 1.1 stroke cycles. How would you define a half-stroke?

In peace,
Glen

 

[commonerg]

Interesting, I have seen no fin dynamic done on the back a few times, but never tried it myself. I see what you mean about turning though. A half backward flip might put you in a better position for a efficient and strong push off than a lateral half turn. I might try this in my next pool session assuming I can find a nose plug that fits me well. Do you wear a nose clip during this?

I consider a stroke cycle to be one pull and one kick because that's all that my stroke consists of. In that case, I guess a half of a stroke would be one pull or one kick. Push off pull, kick, pull, would be 1.5 strokes I guess. But really, definitions are definitions. Performance is what matters.

About the competition, I have been reading and thinking a lot about it. I don't know how realistic a full-blown official competition would be. Insurance has been one of the biggest unknowns. I could easily get the former 1996 Olympic pool rented out for 3 days or so for a decent rate but there are still a lot of logistics in terms of safety and judging to work out. I will start a thread about this soon to get more input from people experienced with competitions. I think it would be great to have even an unofficial competition to get things going in the states again. Capital, location, experience, and interest are all abundant, but the initiative to go through the planning process is lacking. I had a dream last night about having a 16x50m tournament style exhibition involved. It could be a great few days even if no rankings are established or records set. What's the USAA even up to these days?

 

[ggarrett]

Regarding on-the-back, upside-down DNF: I do not use nose clips. My nose gave me sensations at first but after awhile it became natural for me. I tried nose clips a year ago and discarded them because I use my nose when I take that last breath before pushing off. Also, I feel that nose is a natural part of our water-sensing biosystem. Sometimes when I push off, I watch the little bubbles float out of my nostrils. It's kind of interesting for a moment and passes a few strokes without thinking too much about body sensations. On the other end, I do end up exhaling or snorting out some water when I emerge but I rarely notice that. Again, the body has some very good natural reflexes when it comes to being in water.

Thanks for your view on what counts as a half stroke. Since I get about 2/3 of my stroke distance from my arms, I count one full stroke plus one armstroke as 1.6 or 1.7 strokes. And I count one stroke and a pull to the wall with only one arm only as 1.3 strokes. This is probably splitting too many hairs.

What's USAA up to these days? Well, they just elected new officers- I think it goes this way—Grant Graves-President, Jennifer Housley-VP, Michael Antintori (sp)-Treasurer, and Tec Clark-Secretary— all mainlanders, plus Moran from the Grand Caymans as member at large. I may be wrong. They say that insurance it a priority this year so we can hold our breath for a competition this year. They have also said that they were near to an insurance solution by joining forces with CAFA and PFD. A Major Focus of USAA is freediving as it relates to open water diving, spearfishing, and an alternate to scuba diving. In terms of numbers, converting scubas to freedivers offers a big market that interests many of the boardmembers. Last year, this continent, ie, USAA and CAFA, broke from AIDA International by adopting more stringent recovery protocols. I am sure more is going on but that's my summary.

I urge you to start a new thread on a competition in the USA in 2006- offical or unofficial. Annabel and Matt Briseno have done it on there own in Hawaii and they would be great resources. I considered doing one in Cheyenne but thought that the remoteness and the altitude might discourage many contestants. Atlanta offers a good location close to Florida where there are judges so travel costs would be lower. I will look for your thread. I still holding my breath.

In peace,
Glen

 

[commonerg]

I trained with Tec Clark about a year ago. He lives only about 2 hours from me. He will likely be a very valuable contact.

 

[Walrus]

Hi Glen,
11 pounds is close to neutral for me with full packing. By half a stroke I meant I still have to do an extra leg kick to get to the wall with a 4 pound neckweight vs 11 pound. So get at least 2-3m more over 25m with heavier weight and more packing. That's why some people use a full wetsuit and even more weight. I find a wetsuit too restrictive and makes my technique worse, it's harder to streamline properly. Have tried the upside swim works ok but gravity also makes subtle changes to your technique. It is fun though

I went to the comp in Hawaii last year organised by Annabel and her daughter Jessica. Was a great comp very well done, they had lots of help from volunteers, not to mention Kirk and Martin put in lot of effort above and beyond their judging duties. A pool competition is a lot more easier to organise then an ocean one. Still needs volunteers, safety divers, medical and judges though.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[trux]

In 2007 I saw a video of Nathan Watts in the thread http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-stories/67529-freediving-youtube-5.html#post675688. I thought that it was absolutely impossible. Well, except of for some really very exceptional athletes, very tall, and with long years of competitive swimming behind them. In that time, at best, I needed something like 9 strokes for the 25m pool, whatever I tried. I though I may be able getting little bit lower with some training, but after some trying I did not think I could ever squeeze it under some 4. I associated the miserable results particularly with my body shape - I am rather small (173cm), and really quite far to be skinny. My beer belly certainly causes some drag too.

This year, I trained DNF more than usually, and the progress was amazing. I also weighted myself properly (3kg on the neck + 0.5kg on the belt), and got a good wetsuit (Orca RS1). And today, the unbelievable and unimaginable (for me at least) happened - I did 25m in just a single stroke cycle (push-off, arm stroke, leg stroke, touch). I managed repeating it, and even did another turn after it, but did not complete yet 50m on 2 stroke cycles. However, I do not consider it impossible anymore. It is amazing what difference some training can achieve!

Of course, as written above, trying to reduce the stroke number is not very useful for doing long distance. It is too slow (I needed a little over a minute for the 25m), and not really relaxed. You need to keep your muscles working all the time to stay in a good streamlining position. So you will likely run out of air before you do some interesting distance. However, the method is perfect for reducing drag, finding the most efficient strokes, and for finetuning you technique in general.

I have no video yet, but will try to make one the next Saturday (if I manage unblocking my camera).

 

[Jorg]

Congrats with the progress! I'm now inspired to try it as well...

 

[MikkoP]

Congratulations Trux, pretty good progress indeed!

While waiting for your video, here is a couple of videos of me doing 1 armstroke cycle DNF:



In the first video I did a little dolphin kick with the armstroke, in the second I didn't. Normally I don't do it, especially in longer dives, because it is so ineffective.

After the armstroke my legs started to sink, so I had to leave the glide a bit short. With a different balancing I have actually once managed to do 25m DNF with only push-off and one armstroke.

 

[trux]

Wow, not bad, Mikko! Looks much more efficient and faster than myself. I need almost double of that time. Not surprised you can do it with just the push-off and an armstroke. I see I still have to work on it a lot.

 

[Kars]

Great video, very nice colour and light too.

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

Nice! Thanks for posting those.

 

[hteas]

Trux,
I know you haven't been impressed with Total Immersion, but their tricks for getting really slippery in the water and a few other things, like gripping the water and pulling yourself forward instead of pushing the water back, may help with fine tuning.

 

[trux]

Trux,
I know you haven't been impressed with Total Immersion, ...

I do not think I ever criticised Total Immersion. In fact I think I did not see the site yet, before now (or I forgot about it). There is a similar one, I used for some drills - GoSwim.tv and although the style in DNF differs from the classical breast stroke, there are indeed many useful hints, drills, and videos there. And I guess there are more of such websites offering tips for a more efficient swimming, so I certainly have nothing against Total Immersion, although after a brief look at it, I have the impression there is more of free content on the GoSwim.tv

 

[B-J]

Have anyone done more than 50m like this? Let`s say 75m with 3 strokes.