50m+ do you mouthfill

[timm]

Hey,

I am interested in who uses mouthfill to get depth and who doesnt. I am intersted in reasonable depths, of 50m + and would love to hear anyones opinion on progression to greater depths and what worked for them / didnt.

I myself dont and have made the 50m mark, I have played with mouthfill but found it complicated things and prefer to dive without having to contemplate too much. As I get deeper I reverse pack to get air to clear my ears / mask. There is generally a progression of getting comforteable and adapting to a new depth, but seems to work so far.

I have heard that some of the deep deep guys dont use mouthfill, Loic is one but this is second hand information so dont swear by it, And reading around everyone seems to swear by the moutfill and Erics document. The document is great and I have read arond the theory of what depths are achievable with mouthfill from differenet depths, but what to hear what has worked for people.

Opinions and thoughts muchly appreciated.

Tim

 

[Stavros]

Mouthfill basically became mandatory for me when I started hitting 50m ... that of course was back in the time before I started being a heavy packer .
I usually keep bringing air in my mouth and keeping my mouth filled from a depth as shallow as 20m... but on deep dives I now concentrate (with the help of an alarm) on getting a good mouthfill at about 35-40m and then try and keep it there (classic Fattah method). This has taken me to 70+ with plenty of air to equalise ... I do not think I could have hit these depths without a mouthfill even though my RV is relatively low (1,06lt) and my total lung capacity is 7,4lt and when packed exceedes 9lt. One slight deviation to the one mouthfill technique is that if I can I will add to my mouthfill at greater depths... for example I have managed to get half a mouthfull at 60-62m once at a a competition.

So bottom line - even though I have no trouble equalising (hands free equalisation) and my diaphragm is quite elastic and in theory I shouldn't be hitting my RV depth till I am in the mid 70s I prefer doing a mouthfill (maybe not just a single mouthfill but 1 - and a bit - if I can). It also gives me something to concentrate on during my glide phase...

(my 2 cents )

Cheers
Stavros

 

[perow1]

I do not fill my mouth diving past 50. I try to get a hold of keeping the air, because I keep on refilling my mouth past 60...
...I guess a good mouthfill at moderate depth is the way to go.

 

[perow1]

This bothers me a lot since I can do a good mouthfil on exhale dives. I think it has something to do with my relaxation on full lung dives. Maybe I am not relaxed enough.

 

[samdive]

As I get deeper I reverse pack to get air to clear my ears / mask.

that sounds a lot like you ARE doing mouthfill - certainly from how marcus has described his "reverse pack" technique to me.....

 

[shoutatthesky]

When you guys are talking about going to these depths I think two things. 1) What the !@@#? and 2) Which method are you using CWF, etc?

 

[demasoni]

I do not fill my mouth diving past 50. I try to get a hold of keeping the air, because I keep on refilling my mouth past 60...
...I guess a good mouthfill at moderate depth is the way to go.

Hi Perow1,

I'm confused, what do you mean when you try to keep the air and refilling past 60? Do you mean you do an intial fill before you hit 50 and then try to hold onto to it, then once you past 60, you fill again after you depleted your first fill?

 

[timm]

Hey,

Yep constant weight wiht fins.

Sam I know what you mean, but to me it seems to be half of the job, I can bring air up by reverse/un packing and use this to equalise, but do it many times maybe every 3 or 4m after 35m.

The mouth fil I hear people talking about is filling your mouth at 25m, and riding that all the way to 50+ etc. I was hoping to hear from people who are hitting some depths and dont use mouthfill.

I suppose I will wait and see, as with Stavros there might be a depth where it becomes beneficial. I am going to do the way it works at the moment seems more natural and less complicated.

Tim

 

[perow1]

Hi Perow1,

I'm confused, what do you mean when you try to keep the air and refilling past 60? Do you mean you do an intial fill before you hit 50 and then try to hold onto to it, then once you past 60, you fill again after you depleted your first fill?

When I equalize, I must do it with air in my mouth sincemy earsaresticky. Just pinching and blowing wont equalize them even at shallow depths. Call it frenzel or whatever...

Doing FRC-dives or negative dives I have no problem holding the air. On a full lung dive hovever I donothold the mouthfill. I bring up the air to my mouth, equalize and relax/sink. Next time I have to equalize I do not have any air so I bring another mouthful and repeat the process. Somehow I forget to try to keep a single big mouthfill and I keep refilling my mouth quite deep. Since I have had no actuall problems with this I have not really put to much work into learning to hold the mouthfil.

This is a pity since I am convinved that a single mouthfil will makethe equalization process much more comfortable and relaxed and it might be possible to start the dive with less air.

I am sure Ican dive much deeper with my "chaos method" but I would prefer to do it the effortless way.

I do not reallyknow why I tend to forget to hold the mouthfil at depth since I can do quite deep FRC and negative dives on a single mouthfil. Perhaps it is my mind going somewhere else when Im deep or perhaps it is a relaxion factor or maybe Im having contractions down there that suck back the mouthfil. I do not really feel contractionsdown there due to pressure gradients.

I will try to spend some extra time on learning this method properly anyway.

 

[timm]

Hey Perow1,

Pretty much what I do, except I dont bother to try and hold the mouthfil, just brign up some air to equalise each time.

Do you mind telling me your PB in CW, and you got any idea of you lung volume, say no if you dont want to tell everytone or PM me if you prefer.

I also have been lazy about mouthfill, and this is why I ask the question, as I would prefer to stay lazy and do the way we do.

Thanks

Tim

 

[perow1]

I am also, however, concerned that it might be risks involved in sucking up air to deep. I havenot had any problems, but I beleive that if you are prone to squeeze it may be more likely to happen if you refill you mouth deep dueto sudden volume changes in the lung. Parhaps chest flexibility will help a lot, but I definatly think that mouthfilling a considerabledistance from you max depth and to relax the chest will be a more gentle approach to you lungs.

Timm, check your messages.

 

[Bill]

'I do not reallyknow why I tend to forget to hold the mouthfil at depth since I can do quite deep FRC and negative dives on a single mouthfil. Perhaps it is my mind going somewhere else when Im deep or perhaps it is a relaxion factor or maybe Im having contractions down there that suck back the mouthfil. I do not really feel contractionsdown there due to pressure gradients.'

If you figure this out, please post any suggestions. After 50 meters I learned mouthfill. It was so natural and easy that over 70 was soon do-able. After not diving much for the last two years I've forgotten how. As you say FRC and negatives work OK but my first attempt after mouthfill at 30 meters results in a croaking sound, loss of air and no equalization.
Aloha
Bill

 

[Mullins]

I can do around the 60m mark using frenzel but definitely need to use the mouthfill to go any deeper than that. Still figuring out exactly what depth to do it at, somewhere between 35m and 45m

I find sharp thermoclines make it more difficult to hold a mouthfill, as I get a bit of a 'gasp' reflex. I really need to concentrate on holding my throat closed, it does seem more difficult than when doing FRC dives. I've also noticed recently that when I do a mouthfill I have a tendency to partially close the soft palate, which of course makes equalising difficult or impossible.

Shoutatthesky - they're all talking about CW dives, I would assume. Then again, the exact discipline isn't all that relevant as it doesn't really impact much on equalising technique. Unless you can dive in a head-up posture, of course!

 

[Bill]

Thanks Mullins. I'll try Eric's excercises for soft palate and see if it helps.
Aloha
Bill

 

[efattah]

The deepest I ever tried doing a regular frenzel in CW was at 74m, and I managed to equalize but it took a huge muscular effort of the diaphragm (I suppose this could have taken me to 90m by squeezing the ears after that).

However during FRC dives there is no way I frenzel beyond 30m. During FRC dives I fill my mouth at 11m on every dive.

I don't dive with packing anymore, but in the old days of packing I would do a mouthfill at 30m, which could take me to whatever depth I needed, although I was still able to fill my mouth at 40m. However, I recommend filling up your mouth at the shallowest depth required to reach your goal. If a mouthfill at 30m will allow you to reach your target, then why bother with the extra strain & effort of filling your mouth at 40m?

Keep in mind that the deepest depth achievable with the method would be to stop, turn upright, and fill your mouth, then continue the descent.

I calculated that the maximum depth I could reach on an inverted FRC CW dive with a mouthfill is 111m, exactly equal to the current world record (which was done with packing).... so to go deeper than that I would have to turn upright for the mouthfill.

Also realize that once the mouthfill is running out, you touch your chin to your chest and may be able to apply some pressure to your ears, but not enough to equalize. You can then steal one extra equalization by simultaneously doing the BTV technique -- even if BTV alone does nothing for you.

 

[Kars]

For now I need to do a mouthfull If I want to go past 50m. And the last oppertunity to do the mouthfoull for me is about at 40-43m deep.
When I go leggs down/first I can equalise from the diafragm at 50m, have not tried it deeper yet.

I find forcefully trying to gather some remaining air from the lungs at 44-50m, head down or horizontally rather strainious for the lungs and ribcage, and cost a lot of energy, not to mention the falling speed reduction, added dive time etc. Upon surfacing it results in a lot of bloodplasm/filling of the lungs and temporary reduction of the VC; no more diving that day in such case. Usually it also results in a long dive, that is -for me- a dive close to 3'.

Intresting question(s) Timm!

 

[Mullins]

I do not reallyknow why I tend to forget to hold the mouthfil at depth since I can do quite deep FRC and negative dives on a single mouthfil. Perhaps it is my mind going somewhere else when Im deep or perhaps it is a relaxion factor or maybe Im having contractions down there that suck back the mouthfil. I do not really feel contractionsdown there due to pressure gradients

Maybe mild narcosis? The sort of depths we're talking about don't tend to cause noticeable narcosis, but maybe enough to make you lose concentration a little.

 

[timm]

Sounds like I am going to have to stop being lazy at some point and learn to do mouthfil.

Am off to the blue water of egypt tomorrow, so might have a play at mouthfill, but without thinking about it too much dont like to over complicate my thoughts. Just gotta try and get the air from my mouth to my ears, wont go anywhere (I read the excercies, just being lazy).

Thanks all for your comments will let you know if I have any revelations of too mouth fill or not.

Tim

 

[laminar]

Bill - best way to get the mouthfill back after time away from it is to do it on all recreational dives when your attention is not diverted to the task of making a challenging dive. FRC is great training for that, since most dives require the mouthfill. Even if you dive on inhale, you can do a mouthfill at 10m and then at 25m.

Kars, why do a mouthfill at 40m when all you need to do is mouthfill at 25-30m to reach well over 60m? It should be less strain on your diaphragm, too. I never bothered doing a mouthfill below 33m unless I screwed it up and had to try to salvage some air to go down the rest of the way.

And by mouthfill, I mean, one fill only until it runs out (except for practice on inhale when you can do two mouthfills, at 10m and 25-30m).

Practice makes perfect!

 

[Kars]

Laminar,

I found squeezing from the mouth with balloon cheeks still rather difficult, so I just take a 'not so full mouth' at 40, after I do the last mask equalisation at 35m. But I need much more practice. Next time there is going to be a lot of experimentation and practice when I start training in deepdiving again.

Another reason for doing the mouthfull is that I am not very skilled in carfully equalising, and would rather have some extra air to spare than being out of air. Anyway it's great to hear that a mouthfull at 40m should be sufficient for even the deepest dives

Thankfully hands-free maybe not so far off for me, as sometimes I manage to open the tubes, and the clicking is becomming more realiable.

Thanks!

Kars