50m DYF lap times for women?

[Evita]

Good training today, my first time with a monofin in a 50m pool, and what a joy it was compared to the 25m pools I usually go to :inlove

It was also the first time that I timed my laps... and that made me regret the Easter chocolate I have been eating (which hasn't even been that much - yet)

There seems to be general agreement in here that a good pace for 50m dynamic with monofin is 28-31 sec...

But that's only for the men, right? Please tell me that's so!

I am not super fit, but not too unfit either. And regardless of whether I was going "normal-to-fast" or trying to go a little slower, my 50m times were... 38-40 sec. It seems near impossible to me to cut 10 sec off on a 50m, so I would like to hear your opinions about this pace.

Am I slow or am I just being a woman? (don't quote me out of context )

 

[DeepThought]

Regarding monofins, technique is much more important than fitness and it can take some years to get it to work correctly.

 

[Jorg]

don't worry at the lap time! only look at the technique. 38-40 seconds is still okay. 28-30 sec for 50 meters is just fast. Some people like to do dynamic pretty fast and others go more slowly. If I go 30 seconds for 50 meters I just build up lactic acid like crazy, when I go at a much more comfortable pace of 36-38 seconds then my legs keep working, and I guess that's important for dynamic.

 

[naiad]

I agree that speed isn't everything. Going faster doesn't always mean going further, in fact most freedivers don't go as fast as possible during a max dynamic.

Lucia

 

[Evita]

Okay, thanks. Of course I also try to check on my monofin technique, but I was just wondering about the pace, too.

I see no one wants to take a shot at the gender question - I dare you... Personally I assume that there is a difference between what is a good pace for men or for women (different strength, size, lung capacity). Naturally it would also vary within genders according to strength, size, lung capacity. But if we keep the question at a general level - such as the 28-31 sec recommendation in this forum, which I think applies mostly to men - what would the equivalent time be for women?

Any ladies in the house?

 

[Jorg]

It's not only gender that makes a difference, it's many more factors that apply to this, think height, weight, hip to knee length, knee to foot lenght, flexibilty, streamlining, technique,etc, etc... many more factors. And a very important factor: mental feeling! Some like to go fast and some slow. I don't agree on the 28-30 seconds for men as most common. I think it ranges more from 25 to 45 seconds depending on all kind of factors, for monovin that is.

 

[oferdegi]

Just to add my 2 bits, Evita: I think freediving is a field in which men & women stand on a roughly equal basis - the various differences in musculature, body proportions, lung volume & metabolism tend to even out. Specifically for DYF, I think men's upper body strength is meaningless, maybe even detrimental, in making their body more rigid. I think finding your comfortable/optimal pace for DYF is just personal - some men go really slow, too (I never timed myself, but I probably do 40-45 sec., and feel better the slower/easier I manage to go). Slow or fast, I think that even, continuous, flowing & economic movement, coupled with the right state of mind, are everything. If you are more athletic, and have an attitude to match, go faster - then perfect technique is even more important.
Take a look at these two clips to see two very different approaches, fast and slow:
1. Peter Pedersen's 200 m world record:
http://www.spearfishing.com.au/cgi-b...album13&page=1
2.Completely different style, high quality video of Teppo from Finland doing 153 m PB:
http://www.freedivingfinland.net/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&r eq=getit&lid=24

Good luck,
Ofer
I agree about the 50m pool thing - I was ecstatic after my first session in one!

 

[Evita]

Jorg and Oferdegi, I agree with you that there are a lot of factors going into the right pace, it is very individual. And now all doubts about my own pace are gone, so thanks for that

A good 50m pace probably also varies in relation to how long you have been training that distance, and how comfortable you are doing dynamic versus static training (thinking you can hold your breath forever = slow, or thinking that you want to cover some distance before the urge to breath is too strong = fast)

So I guess we should scrap the general recommendations about lap times in this forum.

I think freediving is a field in which men & women stand on a roughly equal basis - the various differences in musculature, body proportions, lung volume & metabolism tend to even out. Specifically for DYF, I think men's upper body strength is meaningless, maybe even detrimental, in making their body more rigid.

I still don't know about the first part, but the last part about rigid upper bodies makes good sense to me.

 

[naiad]

I find that a medium pace works best for me. Going very fast makes me tired so I can only do a short distance, and going very slow makes me lose momentum between strokes.

I've only done my first 50+m dynamics in the last couple of weeks. Next time I'll go for a max again and see what happens.

Right now I'm stuck at home feeling awful, because I have flu. The only nice thing I can do is plan my next training session.... just thinking about diving makes me feel better.

 

[jome]

The infamous 28-31 sec is considered, or rather found through experimenting by most who try it, to be a good speed for the "classic finswimming style".

It is fast, it requires dedicated training, good muscle tone, specific technique etc...That specific dive strategy and style, it seems to suite well. But it's just one way to do it.

I would say that in training and especially when training technique, it is sometimes good to go fast. You develop your muscle strenght and find things in your technique that you never really would ever come to realize while going slow. The faster you go, the more "together" you technique needs to be.

But it doesn't mean you have to dive fast in a max dynamic. But if you have done so in training, ie "overtrained" you technique and body, it so very much easier to go that comfortable old speed again.

So I would say, experiment with speed, even push it some times. Don't settle for the one tried and true solution, but try different speeds, styles and strategies...

 

[Evita]

Sounds like good advice.

These past weeks I have been practicing different speeds both with and without the fin. It has been good to find out that maybe I need to go a little slower/glide more. Otherwise I tend to blow out air too soon, especially during turns. But that is a whole other discussion, and anyway I think it's almost sorted out with proper weighting around the neck.

On the male/female differences:
I agree with the people on this other thread that someone like Natalia is making the gap between male and female performances smaller and she is showing the way for the rest of us (way to go!). It got me thinking that freediving is so great and unusual, because age is not the same factor it is in other sports/activities. Most of us still have many good years ahead of us in this, no need to peak before 25.

You need to know yourself and your limits, even if you keep pushing them forward. Balance, strength and general well-being is important. So is the ability to resist strong contractions... So: Mothers must be the best freedivers! Women who have been in labour for hours spit at our "contractions", right? I also think women who have periods with cramps may have a comparative advantage. I was reminded of this when I... (okay, I won't go into the gooey details)

Just sharing my latest hypothesis, half serious half joking

 

[naiad]

On the male/female differences:
I agree with the people on this other thread that someone like Natalia is making the gap between male and female performances smaller and she is showing the way for the rest of us (way to go!). It got me thinking that freediving is so great and unusual, because age is not the same factor it is in other sports/activities. Most of us still have many good years ahead of us in this, no need to peak before 25.

That's one of the things I like about freediving. I know that I almost certainly will be able to continue with it for most of my life.

I also think women who have periods with cramps may have a comparative advantage.

I hope so! I have passed out because of period cramps.

 

[Walrus]

Hi Evita,
I wouldn't worry about exact times for dynamic with a monofin. I used to think that it had to be around the 30sec mark but now I know that's just baloney. Natalia did her 200m dynamic in 3:04 min, that's 46 seconds per lap. She's also an ex-finswimmer so know's how to use classic technique, so doing it in 30s per lap would have been no problem for her. I'm guessing she used some form of kick-glide combination and not "classic technique". I have done finwimming myself and always did my dynamics with classic technique at around the 30-32 sec per lap. Trying to go over 150m+ I always got very lactic and legs would fail at that mark, I have had to switch to an even softer fin. Now I'm doing 180m+ dynamics I have changed my technique a lot and start out around 38-40 sec a lap, speed up a bit and the end, this delays the lactic buildup a lot. Ant Williams from New Zealand has done 200m dynamics, he also does his around the 40s per 50m. What is best for finswimming isn't always best for freediving.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[Evita]

That's one of the things I like about freediving. I know that I almost certainly will be able to continue with it for most of my life.

I hope so! I have passed out because of period cramps.

Me too, both of the above... Hopefully the cramps are good for something, right? At least if we believe it is so

 

[JIII]

I have been a competitive swimmer for many years, and am just getting into freediving. I would suggest that there is actually very little difference between men and women for a few reasons.

1. Competitive swimming where speed, not underwater distance, is the goal men have a huge advantage in size, general hydrodynamics, muscle mass and overall speed.

2. However, in endurance sports, such as super-marathons etc., where the body is completely taxed to its limits women are frequently winners due to greater pain tolerance and ability to preform when under extreme duress.

For men to function at a higher level than women they must work in an anarobic state, which is guaranteed to build lactic acid. For a sport such as freediving where lactic acid is not just inconvient as it is in competitive swimming, but could potentially be harmful or dangerous, men are unable to use this to their advantage. Furthermore using a monofin, or a fin, levels the field more by making the size difference between a man and a woman smaller. So the physical field is almost leveled, and the muscle and body composition advantage that men have is almost leveled as well, by men's natural size and speed advantage becoming unusable. So I would say that in all actuality a woman's potential for depth or time underwater is probably 99% that of a man's, if fins etc. are used.

However, for speed over a 200, as is demonstrated in that video I would suggest that it would be nearly impossible for the womens' world record to meet the mens'. Swimming 200 meters on the surface is of course a race of power, and the distance or duress the body is put under is not enough to equal the difference between male and female performance. When speed is the object, the male advantage will remain. However, if depth or overall distance or time underwater were the object, rather than speed, I would suggest that there is a difference, but a very slight one. Also, when training don't be surprised if you surpass your male counterparts, women often train as fast as, or better than all but the most elite male atheltes.

Just my 2 cents, remember this is based only 2% on actual underwater work, and 98% on my career as a surface swimmer .

-J3

 

[Evita]

Points well taken. That should kill off my sick excuses and hopes of special treatment :girlie

I guess it is just a matter of time before a woman becomes the overall champion and they merge the two ranking lists into one...

 

[pkotik]

Interesting discussion.

For what it's worth, my time for 50m dynamic with monofin is always 55 seconds, plus/minus one or two, and has been for many, many, many years.

But I am famously lazy.