A global warming thought

[ocean_314]

This might show you just how much is unknown about how global weather works and how absurd Al Gore's movie is.
Please forgive my dates this is from memory and not exact. When the Vikings colonized Iceland in the 10 or 12 century it was green lush pasture land. They grazed sheep and lived very well with snow in the winter, which totally melted in the spring. In Britain they grew wine grapes.
Then came the little ice age and Iceland became the Iceland that we now know. This happened in the 14th or 15th century. The Vikings where forced to fish for a living as the grass couldn’t not survive such a harsh climate. The Vikings all died out from the extreme climate change. England and Europe faced massive famines.
The little ice age ended in the 17th century and the earth began to warm. (To its normal state before the ice age?) The question that the man made global warming fanatics wont address and that the real scientists cant answer because of lack of knowledge is this.....is the earth still recovering from the little ice age? Will a full recovery from the little ice age be complete when Iceland is once again lush and green and England can grow wine grapes?

 

[kale]

Good post Ocean 314. You bring up some good points. Did you know that this was the coldest year on record for ocean temps in central California? Did you know that 100yrs ago there was a commercial fishery for white seabass out of San Francisco?

 

[BatRay]

Agreed. There are some very good points there.

 

[deep thinker]

Very good post and interesting point you got there, it could well be that we are actually still returning to what was once. Kinda turning of the wheel thing...
Allthough we have to add that gas emissions and factories in the 10 or 12th century was nonexistent while that is not the fact today. Surely these must play a role allthough maybe not as big or in the way that it is beleived they do.
Mind you I would not have minded to live a few centuaries ago... Imagine the size of fish in the sea before large scale fishing

 

[BennyB]

Will a full recovery from the little ice age be complete when Iceland is once again lush and green and England can grow wine grapes?

Iceland is lush and green (in some areas), and England can and does grow wine grapes. They make a nice sparkling white, and their other varieties are young but showing potential.

I think you're confusing Iceland with Greenland. The Viking Norsemen never died out of Iceland, the DNA of an modern Icelandic man has something like 80% Norse, and the women have something like 50% Norse and 40% Irish (when the Norse left Ireland to populate Iceland they took many women as slaves who eventually became part of the population). The climate in Iceland is surprisingly varied, the middle is desert (it's the most northern desert in the world) whilst the coastline is milder because of the Gulf stream.

The little ice age didn't affect the Icelandic population as they continued to live throughout the little ice-age period, they had the occasional issue with volcanic erruptions, plagues and famine (caused by volcanic erruptions) but nothing suggests that they froze out. In the meantime those Norsemen in Greenland were suffering from much colder conditions. This graph makes a good comparison of the two climates: http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/1700/17003901.jpg

It is probably true that the Greenland Norsemen were wiped out by extreme climate conditions, but this was brought about by their resistance to change and their lack of adaptation to their climate rather than being frozen out.

The North Atlantic region cooled a couple of degrees in the 13th and 14th centuries which made the ocean voyage from Greenland to Iceland almost impossible, which stopped trade. They could not get wood for ships because it would not grow. They continued to live their lifestyle by farming and raising cattle when they could not grow grass for hay (they did not change to hardier animals like goats and sheep either). But also one of the main reasons they died out is that they did not dress for the conditions, they continued to dress in the European style at the time which was not made for that sort of cold. In the 16th Century a boat that was swept to Greenland in bad weather found no-one alive, but frozen bodies that were dressed in European clothes that were not nearly warm enough.

Contrast this to the Inuit populations of Greenland, who the Norse had regular contact with. They thrived in the cold conditions because they were nomadic and followed their food, used skins for boats instead of wood and dressed in warmer animal pelts.

So what i'm saying is yes, they died out but they didn't have to.

One thing I cannot comprehend is that regardless of whether people like or believe Al Gore and his movie, how can you justify polluting the planet?

When I was in Iceland last year there were ski runs just outside of Reykjavik that had no snow on them (in Sep/Oct). Our guide said that to get more than 2 weeks of skiing a year you had to go further and further inland each year because of the climate change, when 10 years ago those same mountains would have snow on them most of the year.

Love or hate Gore, at least he's trying to help. If he's wrong then the worst that happens is that he pissed off a lot of people, at least we'll still have an inhabitable planet.

Ben

ps if you ever get the opportunity, Icelandic Lamb is about the best in the world.

 

[naiad]

One thing I cannot comprehend is that regardless of whether people like or believe Al Gore and his movie, how can you justify polluting the planet?

Love or hate Gore, at least he's trying to help. If he's wrong then the worst that happens is that he pissed off a lot of people, at least we'll still have an inhabitable planet.

I agree. Many people seem to think "Pollution is not responsible for global warming, therefore any attempt to reduce it is a waste of time and money." I don't understand the reasoning behind that.

 

[Fondueset]

There has been a concerted effort for several decades to get people to stop thinking about the environment. This has been done using well-worn techniques gleaned from brainwashing and marketing technologies. Basically you first redirect people's thinking - with global warming there has been a redirection of pretty much all environmental concerns into this single issue. The reason for this is its way easier to discredit one thing than a whole bunch of things. Once everybody has the environment identified with global warning you set about discrediting it - easy to do since statistics can be used to support anything - moreover its not a matter of truth, but of repeating something often enough (witness Dick Cheney ALWAYS mentioning Sadaam Hussein and 9/11 together - there are still people in this country who think he did it). Newt Gingrich - the political strategist, did this same thing with the term Liberal. He coached his party to always employ this term along with other terms such as 'weakness' 'corruption' etc. until now it has a social stigma attached to it - if you are a liberal you are weak, unpatriotic etc. etc.
So, global warming has been used to distract everyone from environmental awareness - just like 'abortion' or 'guns' or any other issue is used to rally and control people's minds so they think only about what the politicians want them to. The motives are obvious.

Likewise with Al Gore - he has been extensively defined by Karl Rove's political tactical repertoire. Rove has employed the same strategy in every political contest he's been involved with - one need only look. Gore - with his movie, has sought to restore some semblance of environmental awareness. This is a good thing and if you don't think so you got your head so far up your@$$ you probably think the sky is brown. Of course there are flaws in his argument, and its very exciting and empowering to discover that you may even be able to find them! Good for you! But this new power of actual active thinking does not make working out unresolved adolescent angst any less tiresome. It seems to me that one aught to be content to have been done with that back when you were 17 or so.

I'm also researching to see if there is a psychiatric term for the mental illness that compels people to obsess over celebrities and either pick them apart or demonize them.

 

[BennyB]

I'm also researching to see if there is a psychiatric term for the mental illness that compels people to obsess over celebrities and either pick them apart or demonize them.

Over here it's called News Of The World...

 

[BatRay]

That could be obsession, maybe

Agree or disagree with Gore, I agree that we need to prevent pollution. The concept that we can keep polluting because global warming is just a theory is just too large of a leap in logic for me. The bottom line is that we need to care for the planet, regardless of whether the earth is really getting warmer or just going through a climate cycle that it too large for us to understand. Pollution affects people and their health, and that should be a sufficient reason for us to change our ways. The sky is brown where I live, and my head is not buried in, er, the sand

 

[spaghetti]

regardless of whether the earth is really getting warmer or just going through a climate cycle that is too large for us to understand....

So you say that it's gonna be hot in any case....
...I think I'll take those five camels!


http://forums.deeperblue.net/beach-bar/74464-five-camels-question.html

 

[ocean_314]

Benny nice piece. First Gore is not trying to help anyone but himself. The problem with this "hysterical science" that Gore and other are pushing is that it makes it very difficult if not impossible for any real science no matter how important to be believed by the average person. Both my wife and I are educated in the sciences and my wife is making her living doing cutting edge research.
The "hysterical science" that is persuasive throughout our media is used to enrich many different environmental groups and other so called scientists. When real knowledge that comes from real science is often ignored or is taken seriously only until some hysterical science comes along that is designed to be an easy fix for the average person and enriches the so called scientist or whoever is pushing it.
The perfect example is our diet and health. What we should eat and drink to be healthy is and has been know in the scientific community for years and has been very public for almost as long. But every couple of years new hysterical science comes along with a new easy "diet". The Akins diet is the perfect example of hysterical science designed to enrich someone. The exact opposite of how one should eat to be healthy; all the real science on nutrition was ignored and the Akins diet was embraced by the media and by whole lot average people. Currently the biggest health problem in the US is an unhealthy diet and its consensuses.
Al Gore, by pushing "hysterical science" is doing great damage both to the environment and to science, when his "hysterical science" is debunked no on will believe the real science on the global damage that we are doing and what needs to be done to fix or stop the damage.

 

[Oldsarge]

I believe that I pointed this all out back on the "wins Nobel" thread? Whatever it takes to clean up the planet, fine! If you absolutely, positively must break into hysterics to get something done, go ahead. Get it done! (Just don't expect me to believe your reasoning when it's based on anecdotal evidence.)

 

[sciencemike]

(Just don't expect me to believe your reasoning when it's based on anecdotal evidence.)

roflroflrofl

Nice...


Im only commenting today because of the current info. The originator of the 'Wheather Channel" and meteorologist -John Coleman has just put out an op ed where he sites some great info on global warming myth and calls it what it is a SCAM.

Like you said ----

greenland = ice now.

Also

Based upon satelite imagery the south pole has the largest ice sheet that has ever existed in history.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-s...-founder-global-warming-greatest-scam-history

We all want a cleaner earth that is for sure. But lets not embolden these charlatans who use fearmongering and pseudoscience and the driveby media instead of facts.

 

[sciencemike]

So far, I'm entirely unimpressed with critiques of Gore, they're mostly ad hominem attacks

Wouldnt any critique of Gore be an ad hominem attack?

If you want critique of "Global Warming"

1. Measurements of earths temps are not reliable over 30 years ago and they definately can not be used to compare to present day temps.
2. Co2 levels and Temp have been shown to be UNCORRELATED ie not proportional.
3. While icecaps in the north pole are at an all time low, Antarctic icecaps are at a Historic high.
4. Al gore is a fat old goon with mashed potaoeees for a brain
5. Urban heat effects explain why city temps are higher than they were before paving the roads.

 

[sciencemike]

It's political commentary, not ecology, not science.

Exactly....

Global Warming is political commentary, not ecology, not science.

The science is ambiguous, the ecology ... wait ecology is science. ITs really about psychology- Fear of doom and gloom. No clear facts, just gut feelings and emotional appeals to the suffering polar bears and penguins.

With statements like.. Who doesnt want to take care of the environment. What does it hurt to reduce pollution. We should all reduce CO2 emissions. Look we all want a cleaner earth. But lets follow the science and facts. That way we can clean up Things that have a proven effect on the earths ecosystem. VS things that politicians use to prey upon our emotions to gain them political clout.

 

[ocean_314]

The whole global warming is bad science...bad science hurts eveyone.

 

[BatRay]

Actually, you can criticize someone without it being ad hominem. Ad hominem is a personal attack, and there are many ways of criticizing someone's words, actions, opinions, or even appearance without making it a personal attack. In Gore's case, you could point out the disparity between what he says and what he does. For instance, he claims to have a negative perspective on petroleum usage, but at the same time, he has a large interest in a petroleum company. There is a definite difference there, because those are facts. If you were using ad hominem, you'd be saying he's wrong because he's a stupidhead.

 

[Nikkey]

Wet thanks for that article it was interesting
I am not a scientist and I have not seen Al Gore's movie but from what I understand global warming and cooling is a natural process but the impact we are having is that we are speeding up that process. I just hope that being eco-friendly and concious of our impact on the earth isn't a trend and that the lifestyle changes stay with people and it really starts a new way of living.

 

[sciencemike]

. . . . from what I understand global warming and cooling is a natural process but the impact we are having is that we are speeding up that process. . . .

This is what is vexing. There is no evidence that our co2 emissions have any effect on anything. CO2 and Global warming are unrelated. Its a fact that in the middle of this century C02 levels dropped drastically for a period of almost 30 years, yet had no effect on the global climate.

Everyone has these feelings, because they are just logical, and make sense. Im saying they DON'T make sense. They are unrelated. Break yourself of these gut feelings and ask for hard data on anything global warming.... After all maybe you can remember the 70's, when everyone said we were entering a global cooling. Remember glaciers from New York to Oregon.

 

[bgill]

Well, the winter temps and the snowfall sure ain't what they used to be here in Wisconsin, USA. I hope it's NOT global warming...But it doe's seem logical...However the earth has been continually going through hot & cold spells since it's beginning of time.

I can't help to think sometimes about how bad the earth probably IS polluted though...With all of the Globalized Industrialization going on - and a never ending consumption of fossil fuels these days it's crazy...I'm sure we must be having an impact on the earth's environment and atmosphere.

But like the "old saying" goes..."If it don't kill me it will make me stronger....Unless it kills me ofcourse! :t