• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

"...a propulsion system that precisely replicates a dolphin’s tail."

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Ol Dirty Diver

Well-Known Member
May 8, 2006
129
52
118
43
Those that followed the thread "Collection of weird fins" may remember my post of an interesting looking monofin designed by Ted Ciamillo.

The fin was meant to be an example of "biomimetic propulsion"...a design sharing the same propulsion mechanism as that of cetaceans. I just ran into a further development of this design:

"The SubHuman Project - The first human-powered submarine to cross the Atlantic will use a propulsion system that precisely replicates a dolphin’s tail."

This effort will be attempted by Ciamillo himself in Fall 2007.

Article at UGS

Perhaps the predecessor?

Ciamillo's website, devoted mostly to his enormously successful lightweight road caliper brakes (Zero Gravity), but with a page on his SubHuman Project.
 
Reactions: nostres
Thanks for the update, Ol Dirty. The last time you posted about it, I tried to find more info and did not manage - it looked almost like a dead project, but I see I was wrong.

The question is where can I buy one of those fins?
I guess that the best would be contacting Ciamillo. Not sure if you'd be able to pay for his prototype, but if he sees there is an interest, maybe he'll consider producing it. I'd be interesting in it, but more as a collector - I actually do not quite believe it is more efficient than current monofins. I may be wrong though, but I'd like to see some independent review. I am little bit afraid that due to its metallic construction and weight, the swimmer would loose quite a lot of energy on moving the mass. If it is really efficient, it could be still interesting for sprints, but probably less for freediving.

May be good for underwater rugby though - you could easily knock out your adversaries
 
Reactions: island_sands
 
Last edited:

Hi Trux!

You are always right but I hope You're wrong this time I just have a feeling it may be more efficient than classic wing shapes. And when it comes to weight then titanium should not be much heavier than laminate if any heavier But I am not sure if it is titanium, it's just what I would use if I had such a big sheet (about $1500-$2000 cost, I already did research before)
 
Thanks for the update Kurt. I'm very interested in the design. It's hard to believe that a bicycle rider would build the front of a boat that way but he has a work around for the two biggest deficiencies in fins. It will be fun to follow the progress of the sub.

P.S. I took another look at the fin design and he may have solved another problem, too. Sure wish that I could talk to an engineer like that.
 
Last edited:
I think the answer lies not in replicating the exact design of a dolphins fin but applying the same principles the dolphin uses to the human muscular structure.
 
Yeah, that was him, and so was 'zerog'. If anyone wants to get in touch with him, call Zero Gravity (706-757-2414).
It is a good idea. I think it would be fun if he could come to some freediving event (competition, training, meeting,...) with his monofin and let couple of freedivers testing it. If it really performs as he claims, I bet he could do some business - although there are probably not too many freedivers who could spend a four digit amount on a fin (I do not expect it being much cheaper), there may be some enthusiasts anyway (especially if they can gain some extra meters of distance with it). So if anyone of you lives close to him Nicholson, GA), try to set up such happening - I am pretty curious about the fin.
 
Hi guys,

I just got a call from Kurt, thanks...

This is a biomimetic propulsor and differs from the classic monofin in that most of the known parameters affecting thrust production that are apparent in the swimming morphology of dolphins is replicated in the Lunocet. Some of these variables include

- surface area proportion.... sizing the fin to the body.
- high aspect ratio... the higher the ratio of span to chord length (chord length is the distance from the leading edge to the trailing edge), the greater the efficiency. Classic monofin designs have poor aspect ratio.
- chordwise flexibility gradients
- hinged and precisely pivoting peduncle.
- dynamic angle of attack
- winglet flexibility
- induced camber

These are the main components of interest but along with these I have applied my knowledge of lightweight bicycle component design to the Lunocet due to the notion that the above poster correctly brought up... the mass of the propulsor has to be reduced to the absloute minimum to obtain the fastest speeds possible due to the acceleration of that mass with each stroke. Efficiency, speed, and power are all addressed and can be manipulated through adjustments in the parameters listed above. Therefore several models will be available that cater to these individual purposes. This prototype has a foil core of 7075 aluminum and a grade 2 titanium skin, 6AL4V titanium pitch rods and hardware, and a urethane trailing edge. It weighs in at 2.75 lbs (1247.4 grams) I was able to produce 150 lbs of static thrust. Top speeds have not been accurately measured yet. The production model will have a thin translucent urethane skin and have a better chordwise flexibility gradient.

For more information about biomimetic propulsion, here is a website which was launched a few days ago

Subhuman Project

The Lunocet will be launched some time this fall.

Thanks for the interest guys,

Ted Ciamillo
 
Reactions: Sergiu
Hello Ted,

Great to have you replied personally! Your products look amazingly and if they only worked half as good as they look like, it would be more than enough. The look is absolutely unbeatable and technically perfectly clean.

All what is written on your website, and what you tell sounds quite good (especially the weight seem to be quite OK), but still I would love to hear some independent reviews of experienced freedivers or monofinners. Would you be willing to send your prototype to some renown freedivers, or better yet visiting a freediving competition or another event, make a demonstration and allow others to test it?

Thanks again for peeking in!
 
I will make some production models available soon.

Thanks

P.S. If you know Tanya Streeter, ask her, she's tried it.
 
Reactions: trux
Thanks! Do you have any estimates for the price? Will it be affordable to common humans? I mean comparable to the price of normal monofins - in the region of hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

EDIT:
P.S. If you know Tanya Streeter, ask her, she's tried it.
Well, she peeks in here sometimes too, so maybe she'll comment, but I do not bet on it. However, if she tried it and did not keep using it and rather came back to her usual fins, the advantage was probably not too interesting, otherwise I can barely imagine she would let you taking it back
 
Last edited:
All I have is a rough ball park... between $800.00 and $1500.00
 
*(I started to write this reply after getting off the phone with Ted...He has apparently already joined the conversation, but I still wanted to share what I gathered from my conversation with him)

I just called Zero Gravity in hopes of getting Ted's personal email address so I could inform him of the interest his projects have generated on DeeperBlue. It so happened that he picked up the phone, and in the short but engrossing conversation I had with him it became clear that his project is one of the most groundbreaking underwater efforts ever conceived.

First of all, here's a new image of his fully-functional "Lunocet", perhaps the most complex, powerful and efficient monofin ever developed:



He recounted an anecdote where he and some researchers were diving with whale sharks. Most of the researchers were either snorkeling or on scuba, and because the whale sharks were swimming the researchers had to keep returning to the boat and getting dropped off ahead of the whale sharks. Ted allowed a friend of his to borrow his Lunocet. The Lunocet was so effective that it allowed his friend to swim faster than the whale sharks, and he was able to swim with them for hours.

Ciamillo's SubHuman Project is even grander. It is first worth looking into the history of Ted's underwater interests and projects. He began as a scuba diver, then got into freediving. He now expresses an annoyance of all the hassle involved in scuba diving, and prefers freediving. He is most interested in the discipline of dynamic apnea because it involves underwater propulsion the most. Ted is driven by the goal to realize the fastest and most efficient human-powered underwater designs. A few years ago he escorted Tanya Streeter to a competition, in hopes of allowing her to use the Lunocet to set a new dynamic WR. It was damaged in transport, however, preventing the diving world from getting to behold his creation.

In the 90s Ted developed the "K-10 Hydrospeeder", a DPV. Unfortunately, due to the relatively small size of the diving industry (compared to, say, the cycling industry which has offered his Zero Gravity Brakes tremendous success), the business venture sunk. Ciamillo acknowledges that the freediving industry is even smaller, so why pursue producing the Lunocet? He envisions that the Lunocet could be successfully marketed to all water enthusiasts some day, if he can develop interest in it and the activity of freediving in general. He made the analogy of what Jacques Cousteau did for scuba diving...Maybe the Lunocet could be the next great underwater innovation, due to its novel reliance on biomimetic propulsion principles?

Like what Cousteau did to gather the fascination of the world and thereby catapult the activity of scuba diving, Ted is attempting to do the same with freediving, through the SubHuman Project. He has designed a human-powered submarine which relies on biomimetic propulsion. Among other planned expeditions, this Fall he will cross the Atlantic Ocean in the sub (in an estimated 30 - 40 days). An interesting feature of the submarine is that the cockpit will be completely filled with water; Ted will rely on a snorkel or regulator to breathe through the majority of his voyage. Thus, he will truly be diving across the Atlantic. Ted hopes that such a fascinating effort will draw the attention of the world and convince everyone that his biomimetic propulsion idea really works. This will hopefully draw his audience's attention to the Lunocet, and make it financially-practical to produce.

Admirably, Ciamillo is not on a selfish mission to promote only his one-of-a-kind products or be the first to cross the Atlantic in such an interesting fashion. Throughout his expedition across the Atlantic he will be engaged in various research projects, such as studying the nocturnal feeding patterns of megafauna and bioluminescent plankton. Ciamillo is truly a steward of the ocean.

Why hadn't we heard yet of such a tremendous development related so closely to our own passion? Perhaps Ciamillo wants to keep it under wraps until he knows the project will succeed. The official launch of the SubHuman Project is supposed to occur on August 15, 2007. Shortly afterward he will embark on his trans-Atlantic expedition. Ted shared the website for the SubHuman Project (Subhuman Project) with me, yet seemed hesitant about allowing me to share it elsewhere just yet. Understandably, he wants everyone to be greeted by a complete website. He said to go ahead and tell the DeeperBlue community they could have a sneak peek, though. Judging by how professional and content-loaded the website is already, I'd say it looks like he's right on schedule.
 
That looks REEEEEEALLLLYY nice. I want one. Ted, I want one. Let me know when you are taking orders. The concept makes total sense. So much so I can't see why it hasn't already been done.
 
All I have is a rough ball park... between $800.00 and $1500.00

I will be one of the first buyers then. This price may seem high for a monofin but from my previous research on titanium cost, that's what I would have to spend just on the metal. Thank You for Your respond to my inquiry and please let us know when this fin will be ready for sale.

btw, website and video look great, very promising, I will follow thru this mission, good luck
 
Last edited:
I am still looking through the website, but all that I see looks quite unbelievable! The amount of work, time and finances invested into the project must be giant and off any limits I can imagine (just building the own lagoon for the sub testing sounds absolutely crazy! ). I recommend to everyone to look at the website and watch all the videos. It is all indeed very professionally made. Ted seem to be a perfectionist!

Wishing good luck with the project and the expedition!
 
It does look pretty amazing, be interesting to have some freedivers or finswimmers try it out. Ted I'd be happy to test one !
To me it looks like it may have better potential as an ocean/constant weight fin then a pool fin. It is very wide, would make it difficult for turns, think a dynamic in a 25m pool would be tough. :t
The surface area also looks much greater then a normal monofin, would this be more of a high speed sprint fin vs a long distance fin that more freedivers tend to use for dynamics ?

The fins freedivers use are currently using all come from finswimming, I'm not convinced an ideal finswimming (racing) fin would also be an ideal freediving fin. There are more limitations for pool use, ie being able to turn, easy acceleration, for finswimmers diving starts etc. Because of this for dynamics I think a racing fin may be the most practical. For ocean however having super long fins or very wide fins really wouldn't matter. Perhaps something like this will make it's way into freediving records/competitions, open ocean swimming races, body surfing ?

Ted keep up the good work, I hope to try one out one day.

Cheers,
Wal
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…