A way to prolong dynamic dive times?

[picasso]

Hi guys, do you think that O2 tables or any other kind of static preparation could be beneficial for DYN/DNF max attempts? Could it help to prolong dive times in DYN/DNF max attempts or help in any other way? I would say yes, but I do not have personal experience with that. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[vali]

i guess it helps
i maybe off topic here
i never did O2 table, but i can tell from my experience what can prolong the CW dive time...
- a clear water [is better when see the bottom]
- a perfect lest [for me is v litle negative at the surface, do not know for u...]
- a 3mm shorty instead of 5mm long [a litle colder water bellow 10-15 m will not affect u so much]
- a good packing
- first equlaization at the surface

in my opinion, a best way to go depper is the dynamic apneea exercises
i-m sorry being off topic, perhaps more experienced freedivers can share thereown experience about your question
have some rep, because it-s a legitimate question

 

[vali]

...and a little thing more...
i allways can do more of 50m DYN sets with my monofin instead using bifins

 

[Mullins]

Doing warmups of any kind increases comfort and decreases max distance - in my experience, at least. I can use warmups to delay contractions to nearly 150m if I want (I normally get them at 60m) but it doesn't do me any good. Most of the other kiwi freedivers have found the same thing, and they're among the world's best. However I'm aware Mifsud and Sessa do warmups (though in Mifsud's case it's for statics, which are different to DYN).

 

[trux]

I may be wrong but I think Picasso asks about dry training, not really about warm-up. AFAIK he uses no-warm-up, and I'd be surprised if he wanted to change.

The opinions on the effect of O2 tables to physical adaptation vary. Their effect at beginners is undeniable, but at top competitors such as Picasso (who can do almost 170m DNF) it is not quite clear whether it can really significantly help.

BTW, the last time I saw Fred Sessa (it was at the Marseille competition) he used no-warm-up too. Well, at least I did not see him doing any warm-ups directly prior his performance. I was not observing him close enough to tell whether he did some dry breath-holds. On the other hand he did not show any impressing performances (the fact he finsihed behind me in all disciplines is the best proof ).

 

[Mullins]

I must have mis-read the term 'preparation'. If he means O2 tables for training purposes, I don't have any experience of that; but I'd guess they'd be of some use if you couldn't do specific DYN training e.g. because of muscle fatigue from repeated sessions. Switching between DNF and DYN has helped me, so adding some extra STA might be quite a good thing.

Hehe, good to hear Sessa has given up the freestyle warmup!

 

[Narsil]

To add to what Dave mentioned...

It partially depends on what your perceived reasons are for stopping when you're attempting a max dynamic. If you're finding it too hard to push through contractions and any other discomfort, then blowing a bit of CO2 off through warms ups/ very mild hyperventilation might be a useful, short term fix.

If you are pushing through to your physical limits, i.e. getting close to samba when completing a max dynamic, then I agree that any sort of warm up, beyond stretching and of course total relaxation prior to your swim, is unlikely to help.

Try playing with speed: If when you complete your swim you're full of lactic acid, but not too hypoxic, slow the pace down.

The contrary holds as well (although we see this a lot less often). If you've run out of O2, and have very little lactic build up, try upping the pace a little during the second half of your max attempt.

Its all about playing with variables, getting to know your body and how it reacts to different styles and stresses. Doing this can also inform the areas you can spend more time training - working to adapt your physiology and psychology.

Best of luck,
Guy

 

[Mullins]

Jeez, keep up Guy!

 

[picasso]

Thank you Trux for explaining. It is exactly what I mant , sorry for missunderstanding...

I may be wrong but I think Picasso asks about dry training, not really about warm-up. AFAIK he uses no-warm-up, and I'd be surprised if he wanted to change.

The opinions on the effect of O2 tables to physical adaptation vary. Their effect at beginners is undeniable, but at top competitors such as Picasso (who can do almost 170m DNF) it is not quite clear whether it can really significantly help.

BTW, the last time I saw Fred Sessa (it was at the Marseille competition) he used no-warm-up too. Well, at least I did not see him doing any warm-ups directly prior his performance. I was not observing him close enough to tell whether he did some dry breath-holds. On the other hand he did not show any impressing performances (the fact he finsihed behind me in all disciplines is the best proof ).

 

[picasso]

Hi Dave. Sorry for my poor English . I have been lately considering about exact training quantity. It makes me quite tired to do 3 dyn and 3 dnf max attempts a week, so I have been just considering about STA/O2 tables as a pool training supplement. Maybe it is better to do less max attempts and more pool training focused on technique? What do you think?

I must have mis-read the term 'preparation'. If he means O2 tables for training purposes, I don't have any experience of that; but I'd guess they'd be of some use if you couldn't do specific DYN training e.g. because of muscle fatigue from repeated sessions. Switching between DNF and DYN has helped me, so adding some extra STA might be quite a good thing.

Hehe, good to hear Sessa has given up the freestyle warmup!

 

[picasso]

Thank you Narsil. I am able to stand contractions, and I accept that as a part of dynamic attempt . I use to do my dynamic quite fast compared to Dave for example. It suits me 1 m/s speed in DNF more than 0,8 m/s. To feel lactic is acceptable too. But O2 is missing earlier than previous year, even though I trained harder. I am trying to find the reason, but I am not very successful. Last year I experienced some progress after 3 week off because of sickness. My body reacts in strange way.

To add to what Dave mentioned...

It partially depends on what your perceived reasons are for stopping when you're attempting a max dynamic. If you're finding it too hard to push through contractions and any other discomfort, then blowing a bit of CO2 off through warms ups/ very mild hyperventilation might be a useful, short term fix.

If you are pushing through to your physical limits, i.e. getting close to samba when completing a max dynamic, then I agree that any sort of warm up, beyond stretching and of course total relaxation prior to your swim, is unlikely to help.

Try playing with speed: If when you complete your swim you're full of lactic acid, but not too hypoxic, slow the pace down.

The contrary holds as well (although we see this a lot less often). If you've run out of O2, and have very little lactic build up, try upping the pace a little during the second half of your max attempt.

Its all about playing with variables, getting to know your body and how it reacts to different styles and stresses. Doing this can also inform the areas you can spend more time training - working to adapt your physiology and psychology.

Best of luck,
Guy

 

[vali]

when i go to the pool for DYN, i focuse myself to do at least 4 times the lenght [50m] in an hour....
first i do a full lenght, after some time of relaxation i do for about 30m two times with 3' relx interval
after that i do another full lenght
and so on
[with monofin...with bifin i never did more than 2 full lenght]

 

[trux]

Picasso, maybe doing less max attempts may be indeed worth of trying. Well, in our club we are mostly just average freedivers (so not necessarily the best reference), but we do max performances only couple of times per year. I was rather surprised seeing you in Prague at training and doing nothing else than a single max swim. I'd tell that the training effect is rather minimal, and that you mostly just adjust your psychological confidence (which may have also negative effect if you fail for some reason).

In our club we avoid regular max attempts especially for safety reasons, but I also know several freedivers who burned out doing max attempts at almost each training, so believe that not doing them regularly may have also some advantages.

We do different drills during our trainings - usually we start the season with cardio training and building up the muscle force and endurance, later we focus more on hypercapnia, hypoxia, and technique. Some of the hypercapnic/hypoxic dynamic exercises are done in similar patterns as the dry O2 / CO2 tables. You can find some of them in the Apnea Training Manager, but I have many more waiting to be added there (hopefully I'll find some time for it soon).

One of the hypoxic exercises is the one we call "slows" - you do a short distance (say 50m), as slow as you can. You repeat the series several times, with sufficient resting time (+5 min) and try doing it slower each time. In this way you learn handling the hypoxic signs, coping with them, and not letting it influencing your calmness and technique.

 

[MikkoP]

It makes me quite tired to do 3 dyn and 3 dnf max attempts a week.

But O2 is missing earlier than previous year, even though I trained harder. I am trying to find the reason, but I am not very successful. Last year I experienced some progress after 3 week off because of sickness. My body reacts in strange way.

I might be wrong, but that sounds a bit like [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining"]overtraining[/ame]. Especially the fact that you made progress after the 3 weeks off. Max attempts are pretty hard to the body and it takes time to recover from them. I very rarely do more than two maximums per week. Usually just one or none.

This is not totally analogous with freediving training, but if you look, for instance, competitive sprint swimmer's training program, you will find out that most of the time he is doing something else than swimming his competition distance with his competition speed and his competition technique, even though that is what he is training for.

I kind of semi-disagree with Trux about the training effect of a max attempt. I think it might be surprisingly significant. Look, for example, at athletes like Tom Sietas, whose training consists mainly of max attempts (at least that is what I have heard). But I still agree that the maximums probably shouldn't be the only or the main part of the training.

 

[trux]

I kind of semi-disagree with Trux about the training effect of a max attempt. I think it might be surprisingly significant. Look, for example, at athletes like Tom Sietas, whose training consists mainly of max attempts (at least that is what I have heard).

Yes, I know what you mean, but still, I think that 3 max attempts a week, although quite billing your body (as you wrote), represent in fact only around 10 minutes of training per week. And that sounds rather little for any progress in technique, and in hypoxic, hypercapnic, and acid lactic adaptation. Tom Sietas, AFAIK, trained indeed only max attempts, but daily, and perhaps doing even several max attempts per day. It represents at least an hour, or more likely two or even more, of netto training breath-hold time - that's significantly more to allow for improvements and adaptations. In case of dynamics, on my mind, the effect of tiredness, and the psychical burn out is more important than the profit from it.

 

[picasso]

Thank you guys, I have to reconsider my approach.

 

[MikkoP]

Yes, I know what you mean, but still, I think that 3 max attempts a week, although quite billing your body (as you wrote), represent in fact only around 10 minutes of training per week. And that sounds rather little for any progress in technique, and in hypoxic, hypercapnic, and acid lactic adaptation.

Yes, that's true. By doing only maximums it is pretty much impossible to develop many of the areas, especially diving technique. I would say a good recipe to a DYN or DNF training program is lots of technique training and short dives, aerobic and anaerobic fitness training, preferably DYN and DNF specific (like surface swimming, interval diving etc.), and occasional max attempts.

I would be interested to hear other opinions about training programs (especially Kiwi ones ). Anyone?

 

[picasso]

I use this specific MAX attempt training only for the last 3-4 weeks before competition. Of course not for the whole year. I train technique and athers aspects earlier during a season. It is good to try to do max attempts and train your mind and body becouse it is different, but maybe I would try 1 or 2 attempts a week and do something else for the rest of the week. This season is very strange for me.

 

[chrismar]

Speaking for myself and a couple of others I train with, it's pretty much ~3 maxes (or at least long swims) a week, plus a bit of technique. There's the occasional dry exhale static & stretching session and a few hypoxic or hypercapnic exercises once in a while, but it's mostly those big dives with plenty of rest in between.

 

[Stuart]

Chris - so no DYN tables then to increase tolerance to co2? Just max's, with rest in between?