Acid/Alkaline and Electrolites

[Fondueset]

For the past couple of years I have been doing 50 meter underwater laps as my more or less daily pool workout. In the past year or so I've had some problems with needing small fillings in my teeth. Most recently I started to feel extreme fatigue and an impulse to Yawn all the time as well as difficulty sleeping, depression etc. .

Well - this is pretty obvious in retrospect; I was becoming acidic.

I altered my workouts so that instead of 30 50 meter laps in 45-50 minutes - I do 25 meter underwater laps. I do 20 of these with 15-20 second breath intervals at a relaxed pace, then I sprint for 10 - starting with short intervals but inevitably they begin to get longer - up to about 25 seconds. Then I do a couple of relaxed laps with long intervals (30 sec) or so - then back to 15-20 ro 10 cool-down laps. I apply the same criteria to the pool workouts that I do yoga and taiji practices - I expect to come out with MORE energy than I went in.

Another and really important variable is oral rehydration salts. I'd been taking them for the first year - but had stopped. I spoke with my doc and he said his partner - who was extremely fit and in his late 50s - died abruptly during a cross country ski race because he ran out of potassium.

I also changed my Yoga practiced - so that I am breathing a bit more - I try to minimize breathing in the Yoga work - but I was getting carried away and moving a little too fast that way.

Basically - all symptoms are gone - and I feel much less fatigue after long open water dives in cold conditions.

 

[cdavis]

Fondueset:

Do you have a source for rehydration salts in quantity? Everything I can find is set up for one or two drinks at a time and is expensive. I need to make a gallon or two, several times during a trip.

Connor

 

[Fondueset]

Tri-Salts
Ionic-Fizz Magnesium Plus from PURE ESSENCE LABS on sale. Find information about PURE ESSENCE LABS
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Adventure-Medical-Oral-Rehydration-Salts/dp/B0017W0B22"]http://www.amazon.com/Adventure-Medical-Oral-Rehydration-Salts/dp/B0017W0B22[/ame]

Shotgun approach - I'm trying a few different ones. The last ones I've used - very good - I get about 3 gallons out of a packet though.

I've been using Electro Mix from Alacer Corp. 30 packets for about 12 bucks - each one is supposed to make a liter but I generally do two to a liter.

 

[haughki]

...I've had some problems with needing small fillings in my teeth. Most recently I started to feel extreme fatigue and an impulse to Yawn all the time as well as difficulty sleeping, depression etc.

Well - this is pretty obvious in retrospect; I was becoming acidic.

Hi,

Thanks for the interesting post.

Are you talking just about blood pH or some other kind of "acidic?"

To clarify: you mean that you think the act of regularly holding your breath (through training) was increasing your blood acidity (because of a temporary but regular increase in CO2); and that this, happening so regularly, and combined with an (severe?) electrolyte imbalance, was causing the negative symptoms you describe?

The electrolyte issue makes some sense to me. But, I'm not sure I understand how you think blood acid is involved here. Breath holding definitely affects blood acid levels, but my understanding is that this is relatively short-term, and in any case, wouldn't lead to the symptoms you describe. Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Hawkeye Parker
San Francisco, CA

 

[Fondueset]

The concern was metabolic acidosis = which I don't have . But I think the bulk of the issue was electrolytes - with transient extreme fatigue right after long or strenuous dives caused by the acidity. The electrolytes seem to have taken care of the fatigue and the other symptoms - though as indicated I altered the workout as well.

 

[mystiach]

Great post - so glad I saw it, because I have been extremely fatigued as well. And I am now certain it is from not having enough salts - I never add salt to food, I eat no processed food, and do a lot of exercise. I've felt better for the last few days since drinking hydration salts, but a fortnight ago, I was nauseous, headachey, high heart rate, low blood pressure, 50% statics were a struggle. When I was in Europe a few months ago I felt great - and was drinking a lot of mineral water with electrolytes mixed through. I didn't make the connection until I saw your post. Here's a post from Trubridge from a thread describing his training:

Sorry for the interruption – in the last 4 or 5 days I have felt so feeble and unmotivated that I haven’t even been writing my own personal training diary, let alone this one!
After the day off my target for the 5th of October was 76m (one meter more than the very easy 75m dive I did on the 3rd). The result: blackout, maybe as much as 2m below the surface. I came round relatively quickly on the surface thanks to my excellent safety diver Mike Lott, but was perplexed as to why I blacked out on what should have been an easy dive. At first I blamed it on the conditions, which were very poor that morning, with a strong cross-current and many annoying distractions. But I have done much deeper dives in much worse conditions, so I wasn’t completely convinced.

The next day, the 6th of October, I stepped the target back to 70m - and had a samba on the surface. Now this was just plain stupid: I have done over 100 70m+ CWNF dives (sometimes back-to-back on the same day), and it is a depth that should be a walk in the park. Something was definitely up. In fact I had been feeling very weak and insipid, and during breathe-ups it was almost impossible to avoid hypocapnia, despite breathing at most 3 times per minute. So even without a warm-up and with an almost non-existent breathe-up I was getting pins and needles in my hands and feet.

At any rate I took the 7th of October as a rest day and tried to figure out what was going on. My suspicions started to turn towards a condition of low blood pressure. When getting out of bed or standing up quickly I was getting faint-headed and tunnel vision, and my resting heart rate was higher than a doormouse.

On the morning of the 8th of October I was still feeling weak, but decided to attempt another 70m dive. During the breathe-up I actually had to stop, get out of the water to raise my CO2 levels, then get back in and breathe extremely slowly, with 20-40” apneas between inhale and exhale. Even then I started the dive with slight finger-tingling. The dive was clean however, albeit a lot more difficult than it ought to have been.
That morning at breakfast I started thinking about salt. Here at Club Sharm Resort there is a single restaurant where we eat all three meals every day, and the salt that they use in cooking and put on the table might as well be talcum powder for all it salts: I poured some on my tongue and couldn’t taste anything over than the rice they use to keep it dry… I asked the restaurant manager for an alternative but he said that is the only salt available in Sharm.

This morning, October 9, I decided to try a 75m dive, despite still feeling very weak. Once again the breathe-up had to be ridiculously slow and shallow, and once again I started the dive with mild tingling. I managed to maintain absolute control in the ascent and the dive was clean, but I knew that with the condition I was in a deeper dive would have been impossible. Something had to be done.
After breakfast (omelette covered with 1cm of fairy salt) I took the cab to Nema Bay to try and find some rehydration salts. The pharmacist was asleep on the floor of his shop, but we soon woke him up and I bought 4 boxes of Rehydro-Zinc, refusing his offer of some potent drugs that looked like they would never survive the AIDA doping test. I also bought some pure fruit juice and real Italian water.
The change was instantaneous. A friend actually said ‘My God, your face is changing colour!’ Whereas before I felt like I had cold brown tea trickling down my veins now I can feel gouts of hot sticky blood squirting and sluicing through my body. I can’t wait for tomorrow’s dive…

There you have it...

 

[Fondueset]

Its the closest thing to feeling like a battery that just got recharged.

 

[harbour seal]

hello wise folks of db,

great read + interesting thread! i still haven't fully wrapped my head around alkalizing/acidic dietary issues.

a few times recently i had some post workout dehydration, low electrolyte type of issues as well (i couldn't go home right afterward to eat)---potentiated i think by my vegetarian diet, containing no processed foods, and a significant portion of raw food dishes, which means i eat very little added salt.

thank-you Fondueset for the link to the Ionic Fizz, i will give it a try for those really big workout days, especially when i can't get home to a good meal right afterwards.

-

however, i thought i might add a few natural food sources to use post work out, with their associated minerals and vitamins listed---in most instances these foods are some of the best sources of their respective nutrients, although there are tons of other good choices out there.

note, i only listed nutrients contained in the Ionic Fizz supplement facts chart - http://tiny.cc/Ionic_Fizz - [keeping with the focus of the thread as electrolyte replacement, following acidic workouts with possible acidic systems as well]---thus the foods below contain lots of other vitamins, proteins, etc, that i didn't list. finally, i didn't address any of the alkaline/acidic issues with each food.



---[nutrients listed in order of approx %daily value, high to low]---


spirulina - [copper, iron, manganese, magnesium, potassium, folate, vit e, vit b6, zinc, calcium].....also it can directly stimulate blood cell production in the body.

seeweed - dried - [maganese, magnesium, folate, iron, calcium, zinc, potassium, copper, vit e, vit b6] - lots of yummy varieties to choose from (add it powdered to your recovery blender drink, or use on salads, etc)

banana - [vit b6, vit c, potassium, manganese, magnesium, folate]

pumpkin seeds (kernals) - [magnesium, phosphorus, manganese, iron, copper, zinc, potassium, folate, vit b6, selenium...+ omega 3 fatty acid + omega 6 fatty acid]

soybeans - [vit c, folate, maganese, calcium, iron, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, zinc, copper, vit a, selenium]

sunflower seeds - [vit e, vit b6, folate, potassium, manganese, magnesium, phosphorus, iron, copper, zinc, vit a]

kale - [vit a, vit k, vit c, manganese, calcium, vit b6, potassium, copper, magnesium, phosphorus]


-

just these few and you have almost all the nutrients covered from the Ionic Fizz list, except vit b12 and vit d. the easiest, though non-vegetarian solution would be to add salmon to your post-workout meal and you are all good. for me, i eat dairy thus eggs and cheese are good non-meat sources of vit b12, but so is the vegan friendly nutritional yeast.

a couple more i use in my diet:
turmeric spice - [anti inflammatory properties, nutrients, plus other health benefits]

cayenne powder - [massively anti inflammatory, and other great health and nutritional benefits, including alkalizing properties]

maple syrup (extra dark) - [good source trace/colloidal minerals] - i use with breakfast

---

check out these websites for food ideas and search-able nutritional data:

http://nutritiondata.com

WHFoods: The World's Healthiest Foods

---

i would love to hear your suggestions for other pre + post-workout natural food sources, plus alkaline-type dietary info.

in addition, what do you eat pre + post freediving workout? (i.e., what foods, supplements or other substances do you take pre + post freediving training).


cheers,
sean
vancouver, bc

 

[yakfisher]

Would a drink like pedialite be helpful?

 

[Fondueset]

Hi Harbour Seal.

All good advice.

It is worth noting that breath-hold diving is a somewhat extreme activity. I was getting the strongest symptoms after extended open water dives in cold water with longish breath-holds - not so much after even fairly strenuous pool workouts unless I was doing 50 meter u/w laps for an hour or so.

I really needed a fairly strong hit of quickly absorbed electrolights immediately after.

 

[mystiach]

+1 to everything in this thread so far - also worth noting that proper mineral water or (real) indian tonic water can be a good source of salts.

Sean, thanks for a really informative post, great to have all those vitamins listed. I'm with you with the natural thing, I think it is a bit excessive to be popping pills as a matter of course. However my very 'natural' diet is so good that I just couldn't imagine there was some kind of deficiency, hence why it took so long for me to work it out. I eat many of the things on that list as well as other superfoods eg walnuts, broccoli etc, in good quantity but it wasn't enough. I think the main problem for me was the sodium. Lots of exercise + lots of water + no salt added to food + no processed food = not enough sodium. I had some stupid idea that adding salt was bad, but it's kind of necessary if you don't get it anywhere else. Having some salt on eggs or mushrooms is practically mandatory anyway Let's face it, intensive, long term exercise isn't really 'natural' - so it does make sense that a few extra boosts here and there may be needed.

Perhaps some people are more sensitive or prone to this. The symptoms I were getting were pretty serious: headaches (for the first time in my life, so it was a worry), trembling, fatigue, extreme drops in blood pressure (almost fainted several times), nausea during and after any physical exertion, lack of concentration, dizziness, sleep and mood issues (probably from exhaustion). After a the first two days of electrolytes I was so much better that I thought it must be placebo, but it's still improving. I'm kicking myself that I didn't get a blood test last week to be sure, but I'm convinced this was the problem. I'll update in another week to be sure that it's not placebo :blackeye How long ago did you start, fondue?

The pharmacist told me sodium deficiency symptoms were "Headaches, confusion... and stupor", and hastily added "in the latter case it is extreme", all I could think was... well, stupor? that explains a LOT! :hungover

 

[Fondueset]

My diet is still work in progress - it's good, but mitigated a little by the extreme cold I sometimes dive in. I felt best when I was eating a lot of raw fish, however a close friend of mine developed mercury poisoning and this has put a lid on my fish eating. Regardless - the point is that apnea has some fairly extreme physiological effects.

My first experience with this was at Dean's Blue Hole in the Bahamas. I was there with Eric Fattah and among what must have been a nightmare for TSA agents in his suitcase were hard-core oral rehydration salts. I asked if I could try some and used about 1/4 the recommended dose (those particular salts were meant for emergency rehydration). I dove for several hours in the blue hole - repeated dives past 30m - taking pictures, spotting eachother etc. I was pretty toasty so I went ashore. I took a hit of the mixture of juice and salts, turned around and went back in for another hour or so.

Its definitely apnea which tips the balance with this stuff for me. You can get dogmatic about natural or not - but minerals are minerals. One way to look at it is that much of our food is now somewhat depleted of these - as is most of our water - but i think the essential factor is apnea.

 

[Grytsig]

Thanks, this interesting and very usefull. As for sodium - why not add sea salt to your food? I drunk even green tea with sea salt ( not too much - only first cup.) This supposed to be enough alkaline. I know many those who practice yoga do same.

 

[Don Paul]

Great posts guys, thanks. I just realized how salt poor my diet is. I'm going to switch back to Navy coffee on the non dive days.
Cheers, Don

 

[Fondueset]

Found this one too; Elete Electrolyte Add-In | MadAthlete.com

Someone has patented an electrolyte drink made from seawater - with green tea and a few other things added - but I haven't been able to find the actual product - just the patent.

 

[hteas]

Fondueset,

Keeping away from fish shouldn't be necessary. Some species have lots, but there are plenty that have vey little. I work for the State of Alaska program that monitors mercury, along with a bunch of other contaminants, in fish. We have a few species with a fair bit of mercury, such as salmon sharks and spiny dogfish, but there are plenty of others that have very little, such as all of the species of wild Alaskan salmon
Fish Monitoring Program | Homepage
If you are worried about the fish in the Great Lakes, there are about a gazillion samples that have been analyzed of every species possible. The results should be available on-line, along with advisories for what to eat and what not to.

I mention this because fish is such a good source of protein and omega-3s, and besides it's too much fun to go get it.

Knowing what's in the fish up here, I eat fish 4-5 nights/week, and don't have too many impediments from al that fish (I hope)

 

[adelito]

Great posts guys, thanks. I just realized how salt poor my diet is. I'm going to switch back to Navy coffee on the non dive days.
Cheers, Don

Navy Coffee?

 

[Don Paul]

Navy Coffee?

Very easy... add a pinch of salt to the grounds of a match of strong black coffee. The salt is said to mellow out the taste of good and cheep bean alike.

Cheers, Don