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After Black out

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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azapa

51% freediver 49% spearo
Jan 31, 2007
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Here are some facts I would like more information on, if you could be so kind:

- Do all blackouts involve effective Laryngospasm? I must have witnessed first hand about 100 real BO's. They all look the same. The only times I have seen water/goop coming back out of the lungs after BO has been related to bad Squeezes (like, 3 or 4 cases in those 100 BO's). Assuming there is no mechanical impediment (bits of snorkel mouthpiece, or the diver being dragged up head back) is it fair to say a BO is always accompanied by an effective Laryngospasm?

- if un-rescued (submerged), the BOed divers larygnospasm will release with the terminal breath and not before? How long (a range) has this been seen to take?

- at what stage in the BOed diver will the heart stop pumping, requiring defibrillation or CPR? Could this be before terminal breath in general terms, or only after?

- after how much time without cerebral irrigation (previous point) will brain damage occur.


I understand that the conditions, times and sequences of all the above vary much case by case. I would just like some approximations.

Thanks.
 
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Some answers and some guesses:

- At the moment of blackout, laryngospasm starts. The laryngospasm lasts approximately 3 minutes, but varies a bit from diver to diver. Theoretically the laryngospasm ends when the epiglottis suffers energy failure (no more energy in the muscle)

- Brain damage theoretically begins 4 minutes after the blackout. Brett LeMaster was unconscious for 4 minutes after his BO on 81m WR attempt in 1999, but he has not shown any signs of impaired mental functioning. Tom L. in Canada was unconscious for around 3'30" and also showed no signs of impaired mental functioning (years later)

- The heart would most likely stop when it too suffers energy failure. However the heart has a huge amount of myoglobin which allows it to function for longer than other muscles in the absence of oxygen. In the case of Audrey Mestre, she reached the surface after 8'44" under water, and the general consensus is her blackout happened after around 3'00" into the dive. So after 5'44" of blackout, she surfaced and it was claimed she still had a very weak pulse and her heart stopped soon after, perhaps 1 minute later, so a guess would be that the heart would stop around 6-7 minutes after the blackout
 
You have asked some very good questions, particularly the last two. I think we are entering uncharted “waters” medically when dealing with deep and prolonged diver blackouts.

What happens to the heart and brain after a person blacks out from hypoxia? It is the physiology of asphyxia, which is most commonly due to choking, suffocation, entering oxygen-depleted spaces, or loss of aircraft cabin pressure. There is actually very little quality data from humans. You cannot study this problem very well for obvious ethical reasons. You will find partial answers in three places: altitude chamber blackouts, dying patients taken off life support, and freedivers. Free diving is a form of controlled asphyxia. There are some animal experiments conducted to simulate hypoxic cardiac arrests in infants and children. Here is some of what is known.

LIFE SUPPORT TERMINATION

Person chokes on food and collapses after 1 or 2 minutes (rough time frame for loss of consciousness after complete arrest of breathing with normal air volume in lungs). Patient arrives in ER after long period of CPR. We find an obstructed airway and remove a chunk of food or vomit. Vigorous CPR, airway management and oxygen ventilation, a few doses of epinephrine and atropine restore a strong pulse and we get a nice return of blood pressure (usually just before we are about to give up and pronounce). The patient goes from looking dusky and blue to being pink with great circulation, a successful and somewhat unexpected resuscitation. But unfortunately pupils are dilated, there are no reflexes, and the brain is dead from prolonged anoxia. This person is in a vegetative coma from which meaningful recovery is not possible. I’ve had two cases like this in past year alone.

What happens next is insightful as to what might happen to a diver following black out. After discussion with family and various consultations, a decision is made to withdraw life support. Sedation is given and the ventilator is turned off. Heart rate begins to drop after a minute or two 60… 50… 40... 30. Some people drop faster than others. There are occasional extra random beats on the monitor. The sinus node (pacemaker) stops firing (sinus arrest) and slower beats originate from the lower conduction fibres (junctional rhythm) then finally from the ventricles alone (escape beats). This can take 5 minutes or longer. Blood pressure drops as the anoxic heart muscle weakens, and peripheral pulses are lost. The weak ventricles may fibrillate, but this is actually uncommon due to myocyte electrical uncoupling and loss of cellular energy. Defibrillation shocks would be ineffective. Finally there are only very weak electrical impulses every few seconds that have vanishing influence on muscle contraction. This is called pulseless electrical activity (PEA). Finally the heart stops (asystole). The brain is too hypoxic to drive spontaneous breathing. Respiratory drive is essentially lost below arterial PaO2 of about 10 mmHg, whereas consciousness is normally lost below about 25 mmHg. A few small spontaneous gasps (agonal breaths) are seen, triggered by uncoupling of neural oscillators in the brainstem, the last vestiges of a primitive survival response that is ineffective. Death is formally pronounced, although different parts of the body die at different rates.

This is of interest to diving because it is likely the same course of events that can be expected with a seriously hypoxic diver who is not resuscitated, or suffers from excessive delay. Breathing stops, same as having the machine turned off. Brain arrest (black out) followed by respiratory arrest (loss of drive) followed by gradual progression to cardiac arrest (loss of circulation).

How much delay is tolerable after initial BO? How much oxygen debt can your cells get into before things become irreversible (immediate cell death or triggering of delayed apoptosis) despite life support measures? At what point can circulation be restored before the brain is irreversibly damaged and the heart becomes too weak to revive with ventilation or CPR. That is the key question. The exact timing is not known and is really a statistical distribution.

The classic “four-minute rule” goes back to an article published in 1956 based on 132 patients who had cardiac arrest during surgery at a U.S. hospital. Of these, 42 percent survived if revived in less than 4 minutes, and 7 percent if over 4 minutes. A rather arbitrary cut off based on a small sample. This is not very representative study of arrest and resuscitation in the real world. Animal studies demonstrate damage to the most vulnerable areas of cortex and hippocampus (higher centres) as early as 3 minutes after asphyxia, but other lower centres can survive remarkably long periods without oxygen. More recent human data from various large studies show a drop in survival of roughly 5 to 10 percent for each minute delay after cardiac (not respiratory) arrest, but say nothing of neurological outcomes. Generally adults tend to die from cardiac arrest due to arrhythmias like ventricular fibrillation, whereas children die from respiratory arrest causing subsequent anoxic cardiac arrest. Much less data is available on survival after respiratory arrest, which is most relevant to apnea-induced BO.

Case reports of diver blackouts might shed some light on the process, and maybe allow us to prepare better for rescue situations. It is worth asking if we can use specific observations of diver BO to calibrate physiological expectations? We should at least take a look.

STATIC APNEA

Dry surface (not depth) apnea studies show slow increase in heart rate with progressive hypoxia (increased sympathetic drive to maintain cerebral oxygen delivery), followed by drop in HR possibly due to the myocardium itself becoming hypoxic, or maybe from increasing vagal tone that kicks in as a survival response. Just prior to BO there may be an abrupt control instability where HR suddenly drops (sympathetic withdrawal), possibly similar to strong competing reflex instabilities causing vasovagal syncope (common faint). This phenomenon has been reported in various studies. It is also seen as terminal response in lab animal asphyxia. There is complex interplay between autonomic nervous system control and direct myocardial response to hypoxia. Incompletely studied and not well understood.

DIVER BLACKOUT

Bahamas 2009, diver blacks out at 20 metres on ascent from 90 metres. Safety diver covers airway and carries to surface. No response, deeply unconscious. No spontaneous breathing seen. Removed from water to deck with 42 seconds passing from BO time until manual oxygen ventilation begins. Carotid pulse is present, weak but reasonable rate, meaning systolic pressure is likely at least 60 mmHg. CPR is not necessary as diver responds well to oxygen ventilation and begins spontaneous breathing. Awake but dazed after one minute, fully alert and sitting up after two minutes looking well.

Dominican 2002, Audrey Mestre reaches 170 metres then blacks out at 120 metres 3:40 minutes into the dive. Tragic story well known. High negative chest pressure sucks water into the lungs. Laryngospasm if present would not likely prevent this, and would relax with further hypoxia. Dive profile and times documented with precision thanks to data recorder. Witness reports pulse present after surfacing at 8:38 minutes. Seems very remarkable. Agonal breaths reported. This suggests perhaps marginal circulation is present, but consequences of prolonged brain anoxia tragically apparent. Oxygen stores in brain and myocardium are long since depleted.

The heart can shift from fatty acid metabolism using oxygen over to glycogen utilization in the absence of oxygen, ultimately a losing battle if not corrected, but it must drop contractility and pump output dramatically to sustain itself. The brain cannot do this. Some animals and hibernators have a neuroprotective strategy to down-regulate metabolism to pilot light levels. Many species of newborn animals can actively lower their metabolism and oxygen consumption when exposed to hypoxia, probably a birth survival mechanism, but this response is largely lost into adulthood. Adult humans require large continuous brain energy consumption, and so far appear to lack this capacity.

CONCLUSION

Time course of brain and heart physiology is not known after the point of BO. Might be estimated based on case reports and computer simulation. Data from divers is lacking. We should be encouraging reporting and analysis of significant prolonged hypoxic events, and certainly those requiring any level of resuscitation.
 
You are king Fitz-Clarke, such great stuff mate. Thank you.

Cheers, Don Paul
 
The pathophysiology of hypoxia is dependent on many variables. One of the most important ones is the general health and conditioning of the subject prior to the hypoxic event. A study published long after the one refered to above took several healthy male volunteers who were subsequently paralysed with pancuronium, intubated and put on ventilators to control and manipulate their airway. These normally healthy subjects after being rendered apneic were monitored for 02 sat levels. Any guesses on how long it took to drop below 90%?....6 minutes. This group more accurately reflects the freediving population. I too have resuscitated healthy and non healthy pts. The outcome is usually dependent on their previous cardiovascular status.
resuscitation of children for instance concentrates on airway because they have a sound cardiovascular system. The literature is full of examples of healthy post resuscitative neurological profiles for up to 20-30 minutes of apnea/cardiovascular colapse. Knowing that in healthy individuals cardiac activity with measurable circulation can be maintained for at least 6-10 minutes without intervention, it is no wonder that BO's in previously healthy freedivers do not result in any significant or measurable neurological dysfunction. However we are all aware of the trend in world class statics and I do have concerns as to the outcomes of BO's after a 10 minute static.
 
I wander, after the BO what would be the average time value until we talking CNS anoxia in a healthy adult without any history.If the study shows 6 min,many times we have people COPD with an spo2 value below 88% which are still talking and able for small physical activity...Any volunteers?
 
My point in the earlier post was that not much is known about the physiology of the heart and brain after black out, where hypoxia is profound and progresses to complete anoxia. It is almost impossible to get natural data in that situation because it is unethical to withhold oxygen from people who are unconscious for the purpose of experiment or data collection. Insight can only come from the scenarios and case histories described above.

It is convenient to think of it in terms of a “heart clock” and “brain clock” that start ticking at the moment of BO, regardless of what specific events led up to that point. How many minutes can then tick before brain cells are irreversibly damaged, or the heart fibrillates or goes into complete block or loses contractility, and successful resuscitation becomes unlikely. This we don’t know, except to say that there are undetermined statistical survival curves that over time taper off to zero – one for the heart and one for the brain. The brain one is probably shorter, and would have gradations for degrees of brain injury. There is very limited data in the medical literature, most of it based on survival rates in community CPR studies that is of questionable relevance to diver black out. Cases you hear of survival after very long cold water immersion times are rare outliers. It would be interesting to know if free diving experience of repetitive hypoxia stimulates some kind of anoxic survival advantage, but so far I see no reason to believe that it does.

But we play with fire every time a BO occurs, particularly if it occurs deep, as seen from time to time, or if there is a long interval before rescue breaths or oxygen can be delivered. Limited experience with healthy free divers would suggest that 30 seconds or a minute of anoxia beyond BO is probably tolerable for rapid and full recovery if adequate resuscitation is provided promptly. Maybe even longer, as the two or three incidents above would suggest, but there are no real statistics on this. Three to four minutes is far too long and very dangerous for a person who is already unconscious and oxygen-depleted, and should never be allowed to happen. Luck was on their side that day. Those incidents, if they were to occur today in an organized event, should be grounds for an inquiry in my opinion, and some serious re-evaluation of safety practices. Planning should include provision for rapid management of these scenarios whenever personal limits are being pushed. Prolonged black out times like those should never have to occur in healthy divers.
 
I do think that many high level divers have dramatically improved tolerance to brain hypoxia. Whether this gives them an advantage *after* the blackout has occurred is obviously a different story.

During extreme packing, there is always severe brain hypoxia due to crushing of the heart and arteries as well as a vagal response. With practice tolerance to the packing blackout greatly increases.

Similarly, using an oximeter, I have found that when I am in an 'untrained' state, the lowest SaO2 I can tolerate continuously is around 55-60%, otherwise I lapse into a seizure, whereas in a very highly trained state I have been able to tolerate 35% continuously (on a Masimo Radical with SET). Similarly during exhale statics with more brief and transient hypoxia, the seizure SaO2 threshold definitely gets lower with training.

But whether this offers any protection after the blackout has occurred is hard to say, and not many people will submit themselves to a 10 minute blackout to find out either.

One could however say with reasonable certainty that the typical ischemic preconditioning effect would apply for cerebral hypoxia, and certainly the extreme freediver's brain has been preconditioned.
 
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