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AIDA and packing

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Billextreme

Grand Marshal
Dec 19, 2001
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Question:

What official AIDA World Record was the last one we had without use of packing? (Glossopharyngeal Breathing)

Could it be the NoLimit dive by Audrey Mestre to 130m 2001?

regards
/B
 
I have no idea - but here's a couple of wild guesses:

2007 - Will Trubridge 82m CWNF? Don't know if he packs or not but he's Umberto school and Umberto isn't a fan of packing as far as i'm aware.

2004 - Renata De Bruyn 104m DNF, or her 2003 DNF 100m?

Cheers,
Ben
 
Let's break it down:

Last records without packing:

Men's CW: Pelizzari 80m in 2000
Women's CW: ?Tanya Streeter 70m in 2001? I think Tanya may have only started packing for No-limits, surely Rudi told her not to pack

Men's FI: Not sure. Even Pierre Frolla 72m was done with packing...
Women's FI: ?Tanya 70m 2001?

Men's Variable: Pelizzari 115m (Genoni never used to pack, be he didn't set AIDA records)
Women's Variable: Deborah Andolloh 90m? (probably Tanya packed for her 122m?)

Men's No-Limit: Pelizzari 150m 2000 ?
Women's No-Limit: Audrey 130m 2001 ?

Pool

Men Static: Did Andy LeSauce pack for 7'35" in 1996 ? Martin and everyone after packed from 2001+
Women Static: Corinne 5'47" (?1998?)

Men Dynamic: LeSauce 164m?
Women Dynamic: Natalie Descreac 150m?

Men DNF: Frederic 125m?
Women DNF: No idea...



I'd like to break the trend with an FRC CW record, but this is some time away....
 
Interesting thread, anyone know the deepest anyone has ever gone (CWT) without packing? This would just be PB's of course.

Was it Umberto? Didn't he go over 90m?

It would be neat to see from DB members how much extra distance packing has gotten them vs. not packing.

Straying off topic now, don't mean to hijack the thread.
 
To my knowledge the 'unofficial' world records for no packing are held by Umberto, 98m CW and 8'00" static. For no-fins, I would say 81m by Seb Murat (FRC).
 
Hi again,

We only talk about official records here because in training we have to many WR holders.

Eric,
Men CWT: didn't Brett LeMaster do his 81m, Nov 1999 without packing?

AND the latest? Could it be Audrey's 130m or not?

/B
 
Are we talking pool world records as well? Then Renate de Bruyn 104 meters dynamic without fins... 2004
 
To my knowledge the 'unofficial' world records for no packing are held by Umberto, 98m CW and 8'00" static. For no-fins, I would say 81m by Seb Murat (FRC).

That just confirms my opinion that Umberto is still the best freediver in the world and could easily break all the records if he'd return to professional freediving.............but this is just MY OPINION.
 
Brett LeMaster definitely used packing for his 81m record (you can even see it in the video). However his lung capacity wasn't huge: 6.8L without packing and 7.8L with packing, similar to Umberto's volume without packing.

Speaking of 'ancient' records, I think some of the most amazing dives were the unofficial dives that were far beyond their time. Back in 1995 in the CW world record was 72m by Oliva and Pelizzari. Alejandro Ravelo did 81.5m in 3'35" that same year in training, a depth which would not be reached officially until November 1999 (four years later).
 
Umberto's book is one the best i have ever read. And to me he is very knowledgeable and wiling to share free diver. We can only learn from him. I think that packing is important we need to learn and improve it.
 
By learning i mean finding what is a safe level of packing. And improving i mean finding better ways of doing it.
Thats all
 
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Umberto is not in to packing(yet, that is...). He know how to equalize anyway. AND the AA manual is neither into this. Umberto can pack... but it makes him feel out of harmony and he choose not to use it. Simple... and 100% in-line with his and many others freedives philosophy.

I work professionally with Glossopharyngeal Breathing(GPB) or to use the freedive term; LUNG PACKING, and I do this everyday in a big hospital here in Milano where I live. Just like with my patient's, we see many different, personally developed, ways of using GPB in the sport of freediving. Some athletes are packing to the maximum in just 10 seconds; some do the same in 30 seconds. Then we have a big group of athletes that only pack up to 50-60% of max GPB, this is just to make sure they stay comfortable during the breath hold. (mainly STA).

AND to be more EXACT, so everybody understand, I would like to repeat why freedivers are interested to try increase their TLC?

First of all, with more air you will hold your breath longer – very basic, but very individual - an athlete with big lungs and high consumption of oxygen can easily lose against an athlete with small lungs and low consumption of oxygen. The best combination is of course big lungs and low consumption of oxygen.

Secondly, we know that in all depth disciplines the achieved depth is normally directly related to the athletes’ ability to equalize there ears and sinuses during the dive. The athletes are using the air to do this and because the air volume decreases with every achieved meter in depth there is a point when there is no more air to equalize with. With more air you can equalize to a greater depth. Even this is very basic, but very individual as each athlete has different abilities when it comes to their equalizing techniques, and we see many athletes with small lungs and without GPB go very deep.

...and YES, packing is not a complete risk free thing to train and use. GPB will decrease arterial blod pressure if used excessively; causing loss of consciousness due to orthostatic hypotension, and fainting is NOT uncommon among inexperienced freedivers practising GPB. We also know some rare case of lung trauma (pneumothorax) during GPB trainings.

Now some training tips: We know that if you practice packing(GPB) in the right way and do this everyday, your normal TLC without packing increases as well. My TLC without packing is 2 liter bigger than before I start train with packing. AND to start train with packing is mostly like all other training, start very moderate and build up slowly from month to month. The fact is that your freediving capacity is only partly determined by the amount of air you can bring with you down under the surface. Other things that play a big role in freediving such as your overall physical condition and adaptation to depth both of which you can achieve through serious training. Mental strength is also a very important and should not be under any circumstances underestimated. These elements together with the capacity to relax and find total harmony are the keys to being a good freediver. AND Before doing any of this GPB training, make sure you're in perfect health. The best is to make one of those medical exams that professional scuba diver have to do.

have a nice day
/B

ps. It is important to take note that we have now developed techniques where the lung volume is less important: the freediver simply breathes out before he dives and leaves the surface with less than 50% of full lung volume. This technique is similar to how all the whales doing their dives and with more research, development and specific training this way of freediving will probably take the human being deeper than ever. We also use better equalizing techniques that not directly involve big lungs or packing.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for an excellent commentary Bill.

Can I ask what your occupation is? It was interesting to note that a couple of years ago we did some packing research with a hospital in Australia. When the scientist presented her findings to other doctors and scientists, some of the doctors that work with quadraplegics said it was fairly common for their patients to perform GPB as an aid for regular breathing.

Cheers,
Ben
 
Hi Benny,

I work as breathing physiotherapist at Istituto Sacra Famiglia, Milano, since 2005. My patient's are mostly with varying degrees of respiratory muscle paralysis such as cervical spinal cord injury, Duchenne muscular dystrophy (DMD) and poliomyelitis.

I teach Glossopharyngeal Breathing (GPB) incl breathing control, breathing discipline and of course different breathing techniques. I also give long and short term training advice and technical tuning assistance.

…to make it more easy, I teach how to breath. :hmm

/B

ps. the first documented tests we know that incl GPB - goes back to Dr. CW Dail - 1951 and the first documented freediver using it was Robert Croft 1967 and 1968.
 
This may be slightly off topic but here goes anyway.

When I take in a totally full breath then hold very briefly then relax holding in the breath, I can then take another 1-2 small breaths. Of course I can only take each successive breath after a hold/relax.
This is something quite different to what I would call packing as in that instance I use the mouth etc. to 'force' air into my lungs. In the former method at least some of the normal respiratory muscles are used.

Bill, given your profession can you explain what you think may be happening?
 
Bill, given your profession can you explain what you think may be happening?
Well, I am not a physio-therapeutic professional like Bill, but this question seems to be simple. When you breath in, hold your breath and relax rib cage and diaphragm muscles, the thoracic cage tends to collapse slightly due its weight, pushing so the diaphragm more out and allowing to take in more air with the ribcage musculature. This is especially well noticeable if you do not start inhaling from the bottom, by maximally expansing the diaphragm, but rater use predominantly your ribcage to breath. But to certain extend it happens also if you use all three musculature groups (diaphragm, rib cage, shoulders). When you inhale, the muscles are in tension, when you hold your breath (close the epiglottis), your relax the muscles, so they can stretch, making so some place for another small breath.

Bill, do your patients use the glossopharyngeal breathing all day long, or do they just learn it for the case the external breathing support fails or is temporarily not available? I cannot imagine using such breathing for extended periods of time, and it is certainly not something that could be used unconsciously - for example during sleeping.
 
There is a breathing reflex which is called Hering Breuer which stops inhallation. After you have relaxed for a while you can inhale more. You can also test that reflex by inhaling quick and then very slowly. You may see the difference :)

- kimmo
 
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