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AIDA ** course changes
- Thread startersamdive
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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I agree with you entirely Sam. When I read the new requirements I had a very brief discussion with Bill who said that we should put our opinions to the EC.
This will definitely not help freediving in Australia - we have no other alternative over here but to hire a boat to take students out into open water, and boat owners do not like taking max 4 students out, they like to fill their boats up. This means it costs us minimum $600 to take a boat out for a couple of hours. Try doing that for 3 OW sessions and there's not a person on the planet willing to pay for a course. The simple result is that we have to combine the 3 OW sessions into one longer one, 1 hour in the water instructing equates to about 3-4 hours by the time you factor in getting on the boat, travelling several km's at low speed to get to the bar, crossing the bar (very dangerous conditions in Oz), travelling several more km's to get depth (Oz coastline is shallow) and safe conditions (currents everywhere too). Having one OW session is fine for this, but 3 sessions will not practically work.
At least 95% of customers here are weekend people, they work Mon-Fri and some will travel to here on a Friday night to start the course Saturday. And if I travel elsewhere to teach (quite likely) it won't be possible to do a 2.5 day course as I won't be able to continue my Mon-Fri job.
There are 3 agencies teaching freediving in Australia - FDI, SSI and AIDA. FDI and SSI offer weekend courses. I've already been contacted by one agency to instruct for them, if it turns out I cannot logistically teach AIDA freedive courses then I will have to look into this. And yes this pisses me off considering the time and money (thousands and thousands of dollars) I have injected into AIDA in order to be an AIDA Instructor - AIDA are progressively making it harder for Instructors to teach. People in Australia don't care if it's an AIDA or SSI or FDI course.
There really should have been some consultation with Instructors before these changes were made.
Ben
This will definitely not help freediving in Australia - we have no other alternative over here but to hire a boat to take students out into open water, and boat owners do not like taking max 4 students out, they like to fill their boats up. This means it costs us minimum $600 to take a boat out for a couple of hours. Try doing that for 3 OW sessions and there's not a person on the planet willing to pay for a course. The simple result is that we have to combine the 3 OW sessions into one longer one, 1 hour in the water instructing equates to about 3-4 hours by the time you factor in getting on the boat, travelling several km's at low speed to get to the bar, crossing the bar (very dangerous conditions in Oz), travelling several more km's to get depth (Oz coastline is shallow) and safe conditions (currents everywhere too). Having one OW session is fine for this, but 3 sessions will not practically work.
At least 95% of customers here are weekend people, they work Mon-Fri and some will travel to here on a Friday night to start the course Saturday. And if I travel elsewhere to teach (quite likely) it won't be possible to do a 2.5 day course as I won't be able to continue my Mon-Fri job.
There are 3 agencies teaching freediving in Australia - FDI, SSI and AIDA. FDI and SSI offer weekend courses. I've already been contacted by one agency to instruct for them, if it turns out I cannot logistically teach AIDA freedive courses then I will have to look into this. And yes this pisses me off considering the time and money (thousands and thousands of dollars) I have injected into AIDA in order to be an AIDA Instructor - AIDA are progressively making it harder for Instructors to teach. People in Australia don't care if it's an AIDA or SSI or FDI course.
There really should have been some consultation with Instructors before these changes were made.
Ben
2 days is already very hard for me to manage my sked to take the course, and now a half day more:head
Arghhhhh!!! :head:head:head
I need to talk to my Boss again.
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Hey everyone,
I personally don't have a problem with the ** being more than two days -- yet. But that's only because people who come here (to Dahab) have time. I won't be here forever, and then the problem might be mine as well.
Looking at what happened around the instructors exams which are very poorly designed indeed and this now, I get the impression that AIDA would like to be professional about things, especially us, but at least the EC isn't very much so at all.
This Year has started extremely badly for AIDA. We all know that the EC is putting some effort into this, but it's not working yet.
The 2½ day rule is bad for (AIDA's and our) business and IMHO not necessary at all. An introductory course that takes more than one weekend will be very much less popular. People who go on with freediving and take the *** can be expected to give it more time, but those who just want to know what it's like are unlikely to even consider taking time off or sacrificing two precious weekends for the purpose.
The exams need to be thought of thoroughly and rewritten, along with the rules that are not systematic and concise enough to be the base of an exam. Nor a competition, really - I think the fact that competitions have worked so far is more because people knew what was meant in the rules and were willing to go by that, and not because they were bound by the rules.
Anyone who has taken a Judge course with Bill and thought and talked about the rules must have stumbled over the many vague statements and inconsistencies in there. I haven't read the 2009 rules fully yet, but that will be interesting as well, I guess.
AIDA currently feels like a garage business that just happens to have members in a lot of countries. And as long as newsletters are sent out as word documents attached to emails without text in them (wtf?) and certifications are sent to a person (Pim) instead of an office (certifications@aida...) the lack of professionalism will always be strikingly visible.
Facit: I second the two-day two star. And there are many things that need a redesign. Currently, my view is that AIDA continues to make life harder for us but by expecting professionalim - which is not a bad thing, mind You - but doesn't lead by example.
Soon back in Dahab,
Richard
I personally don't have a problem with the ** being more than two days -- yet. But that's only because people who come here (to Dahab) have time. I won't be here forever, and then the problem might be mine as well.
Looking at what happened around the instructors exams which are very poorly designed indeed and this now, I get the impression that AIDA would like to be professional about things, especially us, but at least the EC isn't very much so at all.
This Year has started extremely badly for AIDA. We all know that the EC is putting some effort into this, but it's not working yet.
The 2½ day rule is bad for (AIDA's and our) business and IMHO not necessary at all. An introductory course that takes more than one weekend will be very much less popular. People who go on with freediving and take the *** can be expected to give it more time, but those who just want to know what it's like are unlikely to even consider taking time off or sacrificing two precious weekends for the purpose.
The exams need to be thought of thoroughly and rewritten, along with the rules that are not systematic and concise enough to be the base of an exam. Nor a competition, really - I think the fact that competitions have worked so far is more because people knew what was meant in the rules and were willing to go by that, and not because they were bound by the rules.
Anyone who has taken a Judge course with Bill and thought and talked about the rules must have stumbled over the many vague statements and inconsistencies in there. I haven't read the 2009 rules fully yet, but that will be interesting as well, I guess.
AIDA currently feels like a garage business that just happens to have members in a lot of countries. And as long as newsletters are sent out as word documents attached to emails without text in them (wtf?) and certifications are sent to a person (Pim) instead of an office (certifications@aida...) the lack of professionalism will always be strikingly visible.
Facit: I second the two-day two star. And there are many things that need a redesign. Currently, my view is that AIDA continues to make life harder for us but by expecting professionalim - which is not a bad thing, mind You - but doesn't lead by example.
Soon back in Dahab,
Richard
It seems that AIDA do have a record of ignoring or pushing back people who offer their expertise to improve the organisation.
To me this feels like some people's egos are in the way of letting things go forward.
The question is: How can this be resolved?
It is in no-one's interest to see AIDA fail, but the way things are going, they are certainly not going to turn AIDA into the organisation it is trying to act up as.
To me this feels like some people's egos are in the way of letting things go forward.
The question is: How can this be resolved?
It is in no-one's interest to see AIDA fail, but the way things are going, they are certainly not going to turn AIDA into the organisation it is trying to act up as.
Very, very valid points there Richard.
I've been lobbying the EC for a couple of weeks on this issue, and unfortunately the only responses i've had are those defending the EC's position and rebutting my arguments, rather than addressing my concerns. Some have been somewhat personal and insulting too, not particularly professional at all. From their responses I get the impression that they take things too personally and not as a committee should.
That said, they made a very valid point that they could only act on direct information, not second or third hand information. So far, they said that only 4 people (including me) have actually approached the EC with their concerns, that is unfortunate as I have probably talked to 3 times that many so far who disagree with the EC.
It is crucial that Instructors voice their concerns directly to the EC rather than emailing each other about it or posting on forums as this will not be counted. The EC are not proactive and will not consult Instructors outside of the EC on these matters, so we must lobby them.
Email them at ec@aida-international.org to make your voice heard!
Ben
I've been lobbying the EC for a couple of weeks on this issue, and unfortunately the only responses i've had are those defending the EC's position and rebutting my arguments, rather than addressing my concerns. Some have been somewhat personal and insulting too, not particularly professional at all. From their responses I get the impression that they take things too personally and not as a committee should.
That said, they made a very valid point that they could only act on direct information, not second or third hand information. So far, they said that only 4 people (including me) have actually approached the EC with their concerns, that is unfortunate as I have probably talked to 3 times that many so far who disagree with the EC.
It is crucial that Instructors voice their concerns directly to the EC rather than emailing each other about it or posting on forums as this will not be counted. The EC are not proactive and will not consult Instructors outside of the EC on these matters, so we must lobby them.
Email them at ec@aida-international.org to make your voice heard!
Ben
I´ve been an active AIDA instructor for about 5 years, and there are many many things that could have been improved before this, and i've seen in this years how the EC is making our job harder every year, one of them is the impressive increase of 100 % in the anual fee, that was already increased last year, i live in the third world ( Argentina ) and the costs are making almost impossible to keep teaching under AIDA's shadow. I sent an e mail to the instructors list asking about this things, and the e mail never arrived to the list, seemed to be moderated...the open water sessions seems to be thougt only for dahab or the Mediterranean, if i want to make 2 or 3 open water sessions, i will spend all the money i earned teaching the course renting a boat...To become Master Instructor you needed 25 certifications in 2007 (if i remember well ) in 2008 to be master instructor you must have 75 CCs !! What happend in the middle?? Why??? Oh! the people in the EC are Instructors, may be they don't want more master instructors beside them ( Is it ethic that people involved take part in this kind of decisions ??? )...And there is a question that almost every student i had asked me, and it is...Why should i spend money in a Certification Card?? Will i need it ? Someone will ask me for the CC if i want to dive o take part in a competition?? Remember that 10 or 20 Euro here is much more money than for you... AIDA offers nothing for that people that spent money in a CC...Beside this, some people wants it anyway, so i send the money, the Excell form and...two months after my students are sending me e-mails that they havent received their CC...Ok, printer is broken, and before was the software, and before was that were moving it...so, where's the certifications money?? where's the fees money? AIDA never says what do they do with the money, I believe that AIDA must have at least one or two employees, there are some things that needs much more responsability than people working for free, and then, yes, they will be more serious...by now, i've decided to not renew this year, i will keep teaching, because i love this, but not us an AIDA Instructor, at least this year, i´m not happy with this decision, but i don't find the way.
I hope you understand, my english is not the best...
I hope you understand, my english is not the best...
Alejandro, some very good points there. It is so important that you email the EC at ec@aida-international.org with your concerns, it is the only way that they will hear about it and recognise the issues at hand. You are the third person i've heard say that that they will not teach AIDA courses this year, which is quite sad for both the Instructors and AIDA.
Ben
Ben
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Hm... I have heard similar things at a recent competition. People that have some history with AIDA and have contributed to the organisation are fleding away from it. Most are saying that AIDA more and more just takes and gives less and less.
Things seams good at the begining of the path. I have just finished a freediver ** and *** course and all I can say is that I am more then satysfied with the way things have been presented to me thus far. Courses are good and instructors are obviously well trained. I am preparing for an instructors course later this year and this will cost me quite a lot of money. When I read your concerns, questions come to mind.
I do not see a beter place to debate this issues then this forum. Ok, it is just a forum that has nothing to do with AIDA organisation but all the freediver community regulary checks it so why not here? Where can we hear the voice of AIDA?
Miha
Things seams good at the begining of the path. I have just finished a freediver ** and *** course and all I can say is that I am more then satysfied with the way things have been presented to me thus far. Courses are good and instructors are obviously well trained. I am preparing for an instructors course later this year and this will cost me quite a lot of money. When I read your concerns, questions come to mind.
I do not see a beter place to debate this issues then this forum. Ok, it is just a forum that has nothing to do with AIDA organisation but all the freediver community regulary checks it so why not here? Where can we hear the voice of AIDA?
Miha
Guys should non instructor mail in as well would it be benficial?
As a 3 star I hoped to do my 4 and then AIDA instructor over the next year or so hearing this I,m not so sure. I can in theory skip my four star and go straight to an instructor (providing i pass all criteria) with apnea academy. Do other course providers give the local instructor more flexibility as to how the plan the course? there are a wealth of othe agencies offering something like padi or SDI ok its not really recognised as well as AIDA by us in the freediving community but if your outside of this community looking to try it out will a beginner look for AIDA specificly. I imagine most courses you guys run are for beginners so from a business point of view its best to concentrate on this. Any other views?
As a 3 star I hoped to do my 4 and then AIDA instructor over the next year or so hearing this I,m not so sure. I can in theory skip my four star and go straight to an instructor (providing i pass all criteria) with apnea academy. Do other course providers give the local instructor more flexibility as to how the plan the course? there are a wealth of othe agencies offering something like padi or SDI ok its not really recognised as well as AIDA by us in the freediving community but if your outside of this community looking to try it out will a beginner look for AIDA specificly. I imagine most courses you guys run are for beginners so from a business point of view its best to concentrate on this. Any other views?
feargus, as a apnea academy instructor myself, i can tell you that in apnea academy beginner courses usually last for a couple of months, with several pool sessions and a week-end of open water sessions at the end. if you really want to compress it, putting in the minimum amount of hours of theory, pool, water, relaxation and breathing, there is no way that you make it shorter than 5 days.
linda
It seems obvious to me that the purpose of any introductory course should be for the benefit of the person, not the program. Aida seem to believe their program is more important. The 2** program MUST remain a weekend course. After all, it is a basic course, so dont make it more involved than what can be achieved in two days.
After that, most freedivers will choose to pursue their new interest by taking a weeks holiday. That is where a 5 day course should be introduced (or 3 x weekend courses) to achieve the next grade.
Aida should serve the people, not the otherway around.
email sent to ec.
Thanks for bringing this up Sam.
After that, most freedivers will choose to pursue their new interest by taking a weeks holiday. That is where a 5 day course should be introduced (or 3 x weekend courses) to achieve the next grade.
Aida should serve the people, not the otherway around.
email sent to ec.
Thanks for bringing this up Sam.
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i've been biting my tongue for a while now in the name of diplomacy, but diplomacy has never been my thing, so i'm allowing myself to say what i think.
i speak here as linda paganelli freediving instructor AND freediver, and not as a AIDA EC member, also because i decided few months ago to quit the EC even if i didn't do it officially do it yet, so please, DO NOT take this as the EC official position on the matter
your information is incorrect.
the annual fee increased only once, in 2006 if i'm not wrong, and the decision to increase it (from 20 euro to 50 euro) was solely Sam kirby's, when she was still the officer in charge of the education, and there was not a commission yet.
if you sent your mail to the instructor list back then and it got deleted, ask sam again. once she threatened me to do the same with my mails if i wouldn't stop complaining about some other issue that is of no interest here. anyways, i personally don't believe she ever did that for real. most likely you have some logging in issues...
as for your 3rd world country situation that's sad, but you can't blame aida for that...
the other day one person asked me, and i swear i'm not joking: "if i want to do a beginner course, do i need to go in the water?"
now, why don't AIDA come up with a course for who doesn't want to get wet and cold? after all who says you have to dive at all if you want to become a freediver?
not only you complain about the 3rd session as a (small) bunch of other people do, but also about the 2nd, which has been there forever. really, are you saying you are in favor to a 1 open water session beginner course so that you can cut your expenses?
i don't know anything about budgeting, but i think that when you want to price something you add all the costs, then add your profit, and that'll give you the selling price. if you sell something for 20 and it costs you 50, you can't blame AIDA for that.
as it was before, you could go from a total beginner level to a MI (master instructor) level in just few months.
there are a lot of master instructors (MI) who are teaching deep diving techniques without being able to performing them themselves. especially MI teaching mouthfill and not knowing how to do it!
this is why of the 75 (and you have to be instructor for at least one year). which is still not a guarantee that you will be able to dive deep or teach deep diving after that, but at least it raises the chances.
as for your remark about the EC members not wanting competition, that's simply ridiculous.
if you want to teach courses and not certify your students, you are most free to do that. you can even come up with your own funky certification names ad card. you don't need certifications to freedive.
i personally teach a lot of people at different levels who come here to be "trained" or "coached" by me, and i'm not selling them any of the AIDA products or certifications.
on this i more or less agree with you. serious and professional work should be rewarded with money.
linda
i speak here as linda paganelli freediving instructor AND freediver, and not as a AIDA EC member, also because i decided few months ago to quit the EC even if i didn't do it officially do it yet, so please, DO NOT take this as the EC official position on the matter
your information is incorrect.
the annual fee increased only once, in 2006 if i'm not wrong, and the decision to increase it (from 20 euro to 50 euro) was solely Sam kirby's, when she was still the officer in charge of the education, and there was not a commission yet.
if you sent your mail to the instructor list back then and it got deleted, ask sam again. once she threatened me to do the same with my mails if i wouldn't stop complaining about some other issue that is of no interest here. anyways, i personally don't believe she ever did that for real. most likely you have some logging in issues...
as for your 3rd world country situation that's sad, but you can't blame aida for that...
the other day one person asked me, and i swear i'm not joking: "if i want to do a beginner course, do i need to go in the water?"
now, why don't AIDA come up with a course for who doesn't want to get wet and cold? after all who says you have to dive at all if you want to become a freediver?
not only you complain about the 3rd session as a (small) bunch of other people do, but also about the 2nd, which has been there forever. really, are you saying you are in favor to a 1 open water session beginner course so that you can cut your expenses?
i don't know anything about budgeting, but i think that when you want to price something you add all the costs, then add your profit, and that'll give you the selling price. if you sell something for 20 and it costs you 50, you can't blame AIDA for that.
as it was before, you could go from a total beginner level to a MI (master instructor) level in just few months.
there are a lot of master instructors (MI) who are teaching deep diving techniques without being able to performing them themselves. especially MI teaching mouthfill and not knowing how to do it!
this is why of the 75 (and you have to be instructor for at least one year). which is still not a guarantee that you will be able to dive deep or teach deep diving after that, but at least it raises the chances.
as for your remark about the EC members not wanting competition, that's simply ridiculous.
if you want to teach courses and not certify your students, you are most free to do that. you can even come up with your own funky certification names ad card. you don't need certifications to freedive.
i personally teach a lot of people at different levels who come here to be "trained" or "coached" by me, and i'm not selling them any of the AIDA products or certifications.
on this i more or less agree with you. serious and professional work should be rewarded with money.
linda