AIDA & FREE poll

[CEngelbrecht]

What should AIDA do about FREE, now that IAFD is no longer active? Just leave it to suffer a similar fate or actively initiate negotiations for merging activities?

Practical details are open for debate...

Chris Engelbrecht, AIDA-hand

 

[RogueWave]

Yes, AIDA must rescue FREE. You can see how badly these guys are suffering by going here:
http://www.apneablue.com/index1.htm

or here:
http://www.learnfreediving.com/

or here:
http://www.yasemindalkilic.com/eng/

Maybe the poll needs another choice or two

 

[Erik]

Originally posted by RogueWave
Yes, AIDA must rescue FREE. You can see how badly these guys are suffering by going here:

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not....you think David and Yasmin aren't good divers? Or is it something about FREE itself?

There are things I like about both agencies, but preferred FREE's policies about equipment use- at least until they stopped sanctioning No-Limits and Variable-Weight dives.
AIDA has much more experience with competitions and all the rules and BS around them, and they're working towards fine-tuning. But to flog a nearly-dead horse; the subjective samba rule still sucks and so does the "mask-off-shelf" rule.
:head
Cheers,
Erik Y.

 

[cebaztian]

What is F.R.E.E

On their website one can read what they aspires to be.
http://www.divingfree.com

This is how I see F.R.E.E

1) FREE is spelled Rudi Castineyra as far as I understand.
2) It is a set of rules that offers an alternative to AIDA rules.
(allowes LMC and less restrictments on equipment. Which means you can dive deeper).
3) It is an organization setting World records. As far as I know 4-5 people have set records under FREE.

I am sure David or Rudi or Yasemin can add and correct this. But these three things doesnt amount to much of an alternative as I see it. And why should AIDA talk to FREE (or FREE to AIDA).

Of course it would be nice to see athletes as Yasemin and David at AIDA competitions but AIDA doesnt need FREE.

From my point of view as a freediver I think FREE does more good challenging AIDA from the outside with alternative rules and ideas. In my opinion FREE is PART of the reason for AIDA slowly modifying the LMC rule and situations around the finishing of a dive towards more common sense.
- FREE promoted unasssited and if it wasnt for that it might have still been a demonstration discipline in AIDA.
- FREE cancelled NO-limit - which I think is wise. The future of freediving competitions does not need to be associated with spectacular/technical and dangerous NO limit dives.
- FREE´s safety proceedures in records are better than AIDA.

So let FREE keep on inspiring AIDA. AIDA will grow and FREE diminish is my guess.

But in my heart I would rather see Rudi, David and Yasemin as part of the AIDA community. There will be AIDA CNF competitions in the future and it would be a shame not seeing David there. And Rudi would be a hell of an organizer of records and competitions.

Sebastian /Sweden

PS http://www.webvideo.nu/freediving/features/freerecord.html
something I wrote a few years back

 

[RogueWave]

• Yes, I was being sarcastic
• That assessment of FREE on Sebastian's site was pretty good
• Why would David Lee be unable to compete in an AIDA sanctioned event, if he wanted to? Is he Italian ?
• The link that you posted, the actual FREE web site, is the least active site in their portfolio (think of it as being comparable to something like http://www.aidausa.org/)

I think that the general beef against AIDA, when a beef is made, is due to an air of arrogance that surrounds the organization. Records being invalidated months after the fact (Carlos Costa), disregard of world records that were not made under their sanction, the proverbial flogged dead horse samba rule etc.

It doesn't seem like a given that FREE can't remain independent, thrive and maybe even replace AIDA some day. Too bad you can't add choices to the poll after the fact.

Despite my attempts to drag this into some kind of sardonic mud-wrestling escapade, you guys have too much class and have elevated the discourse to some kind of constructive plane. Part of me wants to participate in the discourse, but that part is much smaller than the part that lives to take lazy, sarcastic snipes at any institutions that seem to be taking themselves too seriously.

 

[tylerz]

Hahah well to your dismay I am certain... I am pleasantly surprised by what appears to be a general improvement in approach to these type of discussions. :t

Cheers,
Tyler

 

[ApneaBlue]

Originally posted by cebaztian
What is F.R.E.E

On their website one can read what they aspires to be.
http://www.divingfree.com

This is how I see F.R.E.E

1) FREE is spelled Rudi Castineyra as far as I understand.
2) It is a set of rules that offers an alternative to AIDA rules.
(allowes LMC and less restrictments on equipment. Which means you can dive deeper).
3) It is an organization setting World records. As far as I know 4-5 people have set records under FREE.
................
PS http://www.webvideo.nu/freediving/features/freerecord.html
something I wrote a few years back

Hi Sebastian,
Good to see you made it back alive from your tiny boat adventure.

I should have to poke my nose in and say you understand wrong when you say, "1) FREE is spelled Rudi Castineyra as far as I understand." FREE was founded by Rudi and he does represent the organization in full force. BUT you are mistaken if you think that FREE IS Rudi Castineyra. Besides the judges who are listed on the FREE site there are at least a couple dozen judges that are not listed who play an integral part in FREE, from verifying records to teaching freediving classes from begginer to advanced. Also in Moscow a new FREE training facility will soon be opened

True, FREEs rulse are an alternative to AIDA rules and are much more strict and formally laid out than AIDA rules. Maybe I am out of line saying this becuse I have not read the AIDA rules in some months. BUT because of FREEs strict rules it causes the records to be extremely expensive. As you may have noticed when you came as a witness to both Yasemine and my unassisted records in Greece. So becuase of this alternative set of rules, it is directly related to the amount of divers which have requested record verification by FREE. Who wants to pay $16000 usd for an unassisted record under FREE because of all their rules and regulations when they can do it much cheaper under another organization.

Anyway, I am loosing track of my thoughts as it’s getting late. To answer Chris’ Merging FREE & AIDA above…Hmmm, don’t know if you guys have ever seen the emails swapped between Castineyra and Nagel some time ago over the apneadiver list. Can’t remember what fired it off…Anyway, Ruid openly offered to merge with AIDA and was open to suggestions….BUT there was no response from Nagel…I really don’t see Merging happening. But I agree, it would be the best for the sport. Hope you guys are all staying healthy and diving safe and deep.

David

 

[cebaztian]

That was truly news. Did Rudi actually approach AIDA. Wow. I would think that prestige and pride on every side would make a merge impossible - but maybe I am wrong.

If Rudi officially approached AIDA with a proposition I wonder if Nagel brought that proposition on to the AIDA assembly?
-
Not wanting to start that age old debate again, but it all boils down to one single issue. The FAIRNESS thing. Which actually spells LMC.

FREE wants it to be FAIR. Hand over the tag and you are the CHAMP (after that do whatever you like - celebrate or faint) - same for all.

AIDA wants fairness aswell - but DOES not want to see any LMC in an approved performance, some fairness might be sacrificed in that process since LMC in some cases has a fine line that has to be drawn by a judge.

Aida rules (including surfacing rules) are slowly being modified. Maybe someday we might find a SIMPLE surfacing proceedure that is impossible to do without LMC.
(Fattah et Co - claims to have one when describing a halfsunken chair that one has to climb into and remain seated in for a number of seconds - they say the seating proceedure would be so tricky that an LMC victim would fall of - but the argument against that is that we would see nasty cases of LMC victims crawling on and about the chair - exactly the thing that the majority of the AIDA assembly DOES not want to see or show.).

But if we come up with a surfacing task that doesnt involve LMC - I am sure that merges can and would be a good idea.

Or another alternative - in which I believe - is that the AIDA athletes learn to do controlled surfacings without any movements that can be missunderstood - AND that AIDA judges get so good at judging LMC signs that less then ONE case in a 100 would NOT be given the benefit of the doubt. That might be good enough fairness for all parties.
We will just have to give it another year or two and see what happens. I think Aida in this case is getting "its shit together".

Sebastian/Sweden

PS. When are you going deep again DAVID?
I am of to Egypt in April and might have time and opportunity to break my own national record in Unassisted (CNF) (40m).

 

[ApneaBlue]

Hi Sebastian,
Yes FREE did approach AIDA, I was hoping for something to happen when the whole merger issue came about. But in truth FREE was very open to the idea but nothing came of it. Ah well, such is life I guess,

Can't remember who I heard with the solution for LMC but I liked the idea someone threw out where the diver is given a set amount of time after surfacing to put the tag in a bucket some distance away from where he/she surface. I liked that idea personally.

When I started freediving Rudi and other told me that I would be exposed to the world of freediving politics. There is a lot of behind the scenes things that alot don't see where it comes to making decisions and such. Personally I hate it and rather stay out of it and just dive.

As for when I go deep next...Well, it was supposed to be this month..BUT I was in Jamaica away from my job for almost 2 months and just recently got back...Didn't feel right taking off for three weeks after returning to work for just two weeks...For that reason we have postponed it till early summer.

That's all for me now guys,
Adios.

 

[efattah]

I remember when Rudi approached AIDA about the merger. If my memory serves me, Nagel's response was a one liner, something on the lines of 'AIDA will not join with an organization which accepts BLACK-OUTS!'

Of course, FREE doesn't accept blackouts, but that is another issue.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[ApneaBlue]

Originally posted by efattah
I remember when Rudi approached AIDA about the merger. If my memory serves me, Nagel's response was a one liner, something on the lines of 'AIDA will not join with an organization which accepts BLACK-OUTS!'

Of course, FREE doesn't accept blackouts, but that is another issue.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Great, so I wasn't dreaming this...It was something that fired off the merger conversation on the list...can't remember what that was...After reading the post where Nagel e-mailed Carlos Coste about his record which was denied, you really can't expect anything better from him...All hail AIDA "presedent" .

 

[cebaztian]

Well Nagel has not made a name for himself of beeing polite always.
But AIDA is bigger then Nagel.
AIDA will grow and be around after Nagel has left the scene. But so far not many has been willing to work as much as he has been doing.

I would guess he interpreted the Aida rules as beeing impossible to merge with FREE. He is bound by the AIDA statues (spelling?) and the will of the assembly.

And as I understand it according to FREE rules you can surface - deliver the tag - AND then BO (or has the rules changed?).

And DAVID - if politics doesnt concern you I hope to see you at the first Aida unassisted competition (whenever that is).

Well its all very silly since the top athletes seem to honor each others records anyway. If you go 62 David - any other athlete will know he has to go 63. And the quality of your dives can be seen on the videos.

Sebastian/Sweden

 

[efattah]

If I'm not mistaken, Yasemin made a record attempt where she delivered the tag and then blacked out, and was disqualified... David can you confirm that?


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[ApneaBlue]

If my memory serves me right she was taking off the tag and BO. Don't think she got to deliver it.