• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

Aiming of Pneumatic Spearguns and Accuracy

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
5,273
1,545
403
People often talk about the difficulty in aiming a pneumatic speargun, but the situation is you look along the top of the barrel or outer tank tube on the rear handle guns to aim them. For the (currently) standard 40 mm OD tank pneumatic gun that means that the spear axis and hence the spear tip is 20 mm below your aiming point when sighting along the top of the gun, that is less than 1 inch of offset. Now as you will be shooting over a distance of several feet you can see that any angular variation in aim is very small to account for this height offset (draw a right angle triangle with height 1 inch and base say of 3 or 4 feet and you will see what I mean, the deviation is about 1 degree). In practice you don't allow for this offset and will simply aim the gun along the sights and note where the shot ends up and you then adjust your aim as experience tells you where the shot will hit the target. This is true for any speargun as their spears do not travel outwards in a dead straight line in any case, there is always some slight deflection from the aiming point, they don't shoot like a laser beam. However the variation will usually not be significant and pneumatics with rear handle layout such as a "Sten" will shoot as accurately, if not more accurately, than a band gun of the same length. Where accuracy does improve is on a longer body gun as the aiming errors (your visual estimate of the sights being "on target" and your required fine adjusting hand/arm/body incremental movements to achieve this state) are more easily corrected as the aiming base line, i.e. the length from front to rear sight (the gun's sight radius), is greater and therefore any deliberate minor muzzle adjustment movement is subtending much smaller (aiming misalignment) angles on that gun. On a band gun you do not truly sight along an axis parallel and coincident with that of the spear, you are always looking slightly above it (due to the hump of the sear box) and on a downward angle through the end of the spear tip, so your sight line is not parallel to the projected shaft flight even if the spear flew dead straight, but the spear does not as gravity pulls the shaft down the further out that it travels on horizontal shots. When sighting along the top of the sear box roof to the top of a muzzle hoop (closed muzzles) then the aiming line will be parallel to the shaft if you sight through the rear of the gun, however you risk getting the back of the gun in your face with a powerful gun with any rear projection like a cocking stock. If in doubt use both hands on the rear grip or one on the butt.

Why the shaft often hits where you aim it is that the spear drops just enough to pass through your aiming point at the shooting distance you are most used to, but you may think that it flew dead straight. By maneuvering yourself to always shoot at a similar distance you "scope in" on your gun. For longer shots you slightly raise your aiming point and accumulated experience tells you by how much and this occurs with any gun provided it shoots straight in a relative sense. Some guns don't (e.g. my Russian RPB-1) because the spear is not parallel to the axis of the gun before its launch from the gun, so the aim will be off as you estimate correct alignment of the spear with the target by the pointing of the barrel or outer tank tube at the target with a pneumatic gun. Such axial misalignment is rare, but can be a problem with forward latching guns such as the RPB-1 where the muzzle alone directs the shaft.

On most pneumatic guns the spear alignment inside the gun is controlled by the piston front face's spear tail socket and the muzzle nose, via a centralizing shaft washer, which are located at either end of the gun and are parallel to the outer tubular body of the gun due to the gun's concentric inner and outer tube construction.

On a pneumatic gun the centre of grip pressure where you hold the gun handle is close to the axis of the shaft because the spear is in the middle of the gun barrel, not sitting on top of the barrel like it is in band gun, hence pneumatic guns do not really need a higher rear grip handle, unlike a band gun if the gun is comparatively light in terms of its recoil resistance (e.g. a typical eurogun). That is why muzzle flip is not a problem on most pneumatic guns. Muzzles tend to lift after the shot due to gun buoyancy once the spear has gone, not recoil (this is for full length tank, floating after spear discharge pneumatic guns, the situation is different with slim forward barrel guns with rear tanks and mid-handles).

I have shot lots of spearguns and the most important thing is that the shot is reproducible each time, you see a familiar "firing solution" coming into alignment and your brain says "pull the trigger now", often without you even thinking about it. This applies to convergent line shooting as well where you estimate where the gun is pointing from a perspective not coincident with the axis of the gun barrel, instead you are looking at where your direct sight line to the fish and the gun's projected spear trajectory will intersect at an angle. This is often referred to as shooting from the hip. Hence you sometimes read the line where a diver says "the gun fired itself" and then there was a hit right where the diver wanted it to be. Change your gun too often, fiddle with the air pressure or the bands in the case of a band gun and you will take longer to achieve the "auto" recognition of a firing solution (at longer ranges) because the gun performance is changing with each power variation. This is why single gun owners who have had years of experience with that one gun are often crack shots and can knock the eye out of a small fish at ranges where you may struggle to even hit it. Plus some luck, but the more you shoot your gun the luckier you will get!
 
Thanks. Lots of great info. will persist with my new 110 pneumatic, but at the moment I have more faith in my shot with my 90 band gun.
Sorry to keep changing subject, but another factor in leaving my pneumatic in the boat is that it's so bloody hard to load. Foxfish previously posted elsewhere that it is more technique than brute strength. Have already bent spear and had to straighten it. Can only just stretch up to spear tip when butt is on foot and I'm 6ft. Hoping that with practice it'll become easier. Supplier of gun recommended de-pressurising gun and re-pumping to minimum pressure and seeing how that feels. Haven't tried that yet. Have been looking at this product:
Mares Long Pneumatic Speargun Loader - New 2012 Range | eBay
Anyone tried on of these?
 
Well to start with a 110 is a big gun & a long stretch however it is about technique & lowering the pressure is the best way to adjust your technique.
What gun is it? what pressure is it set at? does it have a dry barrel?
There are thousands of folk successfully using air guns with good accuracy & no difficulty loading.
I will openly admit that for a long time I found my air guns difficult to use successfully, when i bought my asso 115 with a mamba kit factory fitted things changed a lot.
Most likely because I enjoyed firing the gun & persisted with target practice & slowly increasing the pressure but it all came good & before long I was hitting fish at ranges I never would of attempted with a band gun...
 
Last edited:
Lowering the pressure is a good way to practise loading technique as getting the piston to start moving away from the muzzle is always the hardest part when you are fully stretched out. I would rather use a shorter gun that I could load all throughout the dive than struggle with a long gun and only put a few shots through it. One way to gain some practice, without letting all the air out, is to put the power regulator on "low power" and depressurize the gun's inner barrel and pre-chamber by depressing the rear inlet valve, but don't let too much air out. You can then practice loading the gun, but don't flip the power regulator up to "full power" or you will be back to higher pressure, although slightly less than before as you have released some air from the gun.

The pressure lost from the inner barrel is easily replenished with the hand pump as it has a much smaller volume than the outer tank.
 
Thanks for this guys. My gun is a mares spark mimitec 110. I'm not sure what pressure it arrived with, but I intend to de-pressurise then pump back up to 10bar. The manual states a pressure range of 10-30. Will then see how I get on loading it.
 
You can buy a pressure gauge that fits on the pump, well worth it I think.
10 bar will be nice & easy to load, I find that around 18 bar things start to stiffen up!
Have fun building up the powwweerrr....
 
Have to agree this is a great post. I have never actually aimed when shooting and surprisingly had a good success rate ill have to start aiming and try to improve.
 
Laser sights for a speargun is a recurring topic as the price and size of the lasers becomes ever smaller and they are more readily available. One idea that may be worth pursuing for pneumatic spearguns as they have a bore that can in a sense be “bore-sighted”, i.e. you stick a slim laser temporarily in the muzzle/bore, is convergent beam shooting where two laser beams converge at the optimum point for hitting the target. This is a similar process to harmonizing wing mounted weapons in fighter planes so that the streams of cannon and bullet shells all converge at one spot at the optimum range where they will create the most damage, defeat any protective armor and fully penetrate the vital areas. When setting up such systems in a speargun you want the two convergent laser sighting beams and the temporary muzzle "bore-sight" beam to all pass through the one spot, while in actual use the third traversal will be the flying shaft passing through the point where the two lasers are converging.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tactical-G...616987&hash=item5d7dec0924:g:U5IAAOSwQN1bDSPG
 
I have thought about this from time to time. These lasers are everywhere to be had here in China and for even less money than in the Ebay link. Also, since I have a lathe now, I could encase it in waterproof housing myself. Obviously, the smartest would be to put the laser in the muzzle and if you wanted a bigger battery move that aft towards the handle - ideally hooking the switch up to the trigger somehow.
But honestly, once I see how Majd - and others - can now shoot extremely tight groups with normal bandguns, I am beginning to feel that laser is overkill. Or rather might not solve some more important underlying issues.

The thing is, again if we take Majd's word for it, a lot of the inaccuracy and missed shots in spearfishing is not as much a result of bad aim as it is is a result of bad gun setup. E.g. the gun just doesn't shoot straight and worse, it doesn't shoot consistently. Hence, if you get the gun optimized it will likely shoot where you aim it and the aiming is, supposedly, not as hard as we often try to make it. While Majd is obviously a sniper in the pool, he says that with his most optimized guns pretty much everyone else can shoot them as accurate as he does.

As an engineering project, for sure, a laser sight would be a fun challenge. And possibly for dialing in a gun in the pool, bascially helping you aim so that that parameter stays constant.
 
I have thought about this from time to time. These lasers are everywhere to be had here in China and for even less money than in the Ebay link. Also, since I have a lathe now, I could encase it in waterproof housing myself. Obviously, the smartest would be to put the laser in the muzzle and if you wanted a bigger battery move that aft towards the handle - ideally hooking the switch up to the trigger somehow.
But honestly, once I see how Majd - and others - can now shoot extremely tight groups with normal bandguns, I am beginning to feel that laser is overkill. Or rather might not solve some more important underlying issues.

The thing is, again if we take Majd's word for it, a lot of the inaccuracy and missed shots in spearfishing is not as much a result of bad aim as it is is a result of bad gun setup. E.g. the gun just doesn't shoot straight and worse, it doesn't shoot consistently. Hence, if you get the gun optimized it will likely shoot where you aim it and the aiming is, supposedly, not as hard as we often try to make it. While Majd is obviously a sniper in the pool, he says that with his most optimized guns pretty much everyone else can shoot them as accurate as he does.

As an engineering project, for sure, a laser sight would be a fun challenge. And possibly for dialing in a gun in the pool, bascially helping you aim so that that parameter stays constant.
I have suggested to Andreas that as he is making a relatively complicated gun, compared to a slingshot style band gun that is, that he might like to consider putting a green laser sight on it. I have ordered a US$16.00 green laser with the idea of playing around with it. Five or more years ago I would be paying $400 or more just for a bare bones laser with no fittings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Diving Gecko
Yeah, the commercially available one, on that other forum, has a somewhat "strange" pricing. Of course, there's rent, R&D, taxes, salaries and so on to be paid but unless the parts are made in the US, too, I really don't see why it can't be priced lower. Once you start looking into what the parts for these relatively weak lasers costs, we are talking a few dollars. Anyways, people are free to charge what they want - I just think he might have missed his window. That said, he is taking it all extremely well:)
I've been close to pulling the trigger, so to speak, on these parts many times but every time another project came up;-).
 
Yeah, the commercially available one, on that other forum, has a somewhat "strange" pricing. Of course, there's rent, R&D, taxes, salaries and so on to be paid but unless the parts are made in the US, too, I really don't see why it can't be priced lower. Once you start looking into what the parts for these relatively weak lasers costs, we are talking a few dollars. Anyways, people are free to charge what they want - I just think he might have missed his window. That said, he is taking it all extremely well:)
I've been close to pulling the trigger, so to speak, on these parts many times but every time another project came up;-).
Well I was being polite, but the price for his laser sight was in my view way too much, more like $150 at the most rather than 3 times that much. Bear in mind that flashlight style housing green laser was only $99.95 and for two of them ordered simultaneously $149.95 and they were already waterproof, but with no fancy trigger switching they being either "on" or "off". The blonde bikini clad model demonstrating the gun with the laser sight from Joe looked very nice, but not 400 or so bucks worth.

https://divesales.com/contents/en-us/d100_green_laser_information.html
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Diving Gecko
There is a band gun muzzle flashlight that could be converted to mounting a laser and that is the TWILIGHT Muzzle. Similarly there are places in a pneumatic gun nose cone that could mount a laser, or even two lasers. I am thinking of the ONE AIR nose cone in particular.
twilight flashlight muzzle.jpg
.
 

Attachments

  • Twilight Flashlight Muzzle.pdf
    8.7 MB · Views: 294
This speargun sighting system from "Laser Tools Co." Company USA (http://www.lasertoolsco.com/) is still looking for a market opening and also improving its product, but for many prospective buyers the cost is a consideration.
laser sight speargun accessory.jpg

Lasertoolsco speargun laser sight.jpg

SpearGun-laser sight green.jpg

The other problem for pneumatic speargun users is the weight and size of any laser sighting device, as unlike a band gun there is not a lot of barrel real estate to fit one onto and large barrel clamps are not always going to cut it. The flashlight Styrofoam float attachments strapped to the gun like the Pelengas models might do the trick, but the bulk added is off-putting. I would rather have a plastic housing, or alloy, rather than brass as pneumatic guns don't need the ballast that a multi-band gun sometimes does.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: foxfish
Here is the "Moray Laser" with a dive flashlight style screw-cap "on-off" switch. Basically US$100 or US$150 for two if you order more than one.
moray laser.jpg
 
I purchased this laser boresight for assistance in lining up any laser sights on a pneumatic speargun with the axial bore of the inner barrel. The boresight is inserted and aligned in the muzzle/inner barrel and the laser targeting sights are adjusted to intersect with the beam from the boresight at the required distance from the muzzle.
laser boresight kit.jpg

laser boresight kit 2.jpg
 
i just found this diagram, which I thought was lost, buried in a Word document on my old computer's recovered hard drive files.
Accuracy of aiming.jpg
 
Here is a laser sight installation on a "Taimen" speargun which is very compact and has a grip mounted switch to turn the laser sight on and off.
YUIKRCd7TYg.jpg


A short video shows the switch operation on dry land.
 
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2024 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Ocean Advocacy and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT