Alomst died at my dynamic attemt

[java]

Hi Everyone,

I usually don't post any threads, but this time I feel I have to.

On this Wednesday I was training in 25m public pool without any buddy. Before my attempt to dive 4 distances (100m) I asked 2 life savers to keep an eye on me in case smth. happens and told them, that I was going to do 100m DNF. At the end of the 2nd length I was confused by some old man standing on my way, but swam around him and continued, thinking that I finish after 75m. But when I reached the end of the pool for the 3rd time and made turnover I felt myself OK (no acid in muscles, no need to breath), so I decided to bring my attempt to the end.

Now I can remember only 3,5 lengths, then some ugly and painful dreams and waking up on the floor near the pool with two guys looking really scared on me. I had headache, pains in my solar plexus . . . and wanted to cry like a baby . . .

These life savers told me, that I have calmly finished all 4 lengths, stood on my feet and didn't come up. My right hand was still moving. They thought I was doing just a part of my training. After 10-15 seconds I stopped moving at all. Only than they have got it, that something went wrong and fished me quickly out of the water. I had no pulse and was not breathing. They performed [SIZE=-1]cardiopulmonary resuscitation pushing my heart and doing artificial ventilations.

I had cardiac arrest for over than 3 minutes!

They even thought I were already dead. And than miracle happened and I woke up.

After that I was transported by helicopter to AKH (research clinic in Vienna) to accident and emergency department, where I was precisely checked for possible "injuries". Everything was fine, only right part of my heart was a bit bigger than normal. I haven't inhaled any water, but nevertheless I had to stay there for one night. On the next day - again full check = everything OK. Even heart returned to its normal sizes.[/SIZE]

Earlier I have never had any sambas and BOs. I do not hyperventilate, as I am aware of what can happen. As a rule I come out either if I feel pain in my muscles and not able to move them any more or I feel the need to breath so strongly, that I cannot tolerate it. This time I felt neither one thing nor the other. That's why it is strange and very very scaring, that something like this can happen without any notice. I don't want to think, what could happen, if these two professional life savers were not there and I would have been only with some friend of mine or with my girlfriend, as I am used to train.

Tomorrow I have an appointment by one doctor, who specializes on free-diving. Let's see what she can tell me. The guys from AKH, one of the biggest medical research facilities in Europe were puzzled with my accident and told me to go to some special sports doctor.

This is very strange Blackout. I have googled and searched in forums but found nothing similar. Usually, if blacked out diver is taken promptly out of water, he begins to breath automatically. But, that one can get cardiac arrest because of dynamic training - is pretty strange and ugly.
That's why I am writing here, may be you have some interesting thought on this accident. Now I am considering, if I continue with my training or dive just for fun without any record attempts. But I love diving and it is difficult to think, that I have to give it up.

Have someone ever heard anything similar can happen?

Regards from Austria
J



Short info about me, that u can get idea on my capabilities and physics.
age: 24
growth: 195cm
weight: 80kg
am diving since January 2007 (at that time I could hardly manage 25m DNF)

Personal bests:
STA: 6 min
DYN with monofin: 100m (in 50m pool)
DNF: 80m in (in 50m pool) without any additional weights
This time I have build up a neck weight from 3,5kg soft lead and bike tire tube. I thought that I manage 100m without any trouble, as 2 weeks ago I have done 3 lengths (75m) in the same pool without any weights, and felt myself OK. My girlfriend was watching my ass on that attempt.
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/gQPU.&search=department

 

[maytag]

Java,
That is one scary, sobering story, but thanks for sharing it. Very glad you are alive and seemingly well. Take good care,

 

[Adrian]

You are very lucky Java, even with the life guards looking out for you - good thing you thought of telling them, otherwise normally they might have thought you were playing or simply not have their attention on you at the time. A good lesson learnt and thanks for telling us, this kind of thing is always there in the background. I'm moving this thread to the "Safety" forum, as it's where people concerned for safety might have a better chance for finding this in the future.

 

[Amphibious]

On this Wednesday I was training in 25m public pool without any buddy.

every morning you wake up, look in the mirror, and repeat:

" I was a total idiot. I should have died. it is only by the grace of **insert mythological diety here** that I am still alive today. I will never atempt a Personal Best with out a buddy. I was an idiot. I will strive to never be an idiot again. I will learn from my mistakes."


should help. (worked for me after a few idiot moments)

you are one lucky guy!

 

[laminar]

Java,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Glad that you are still alive!

By now, you've probably heard from lots of people that you should have had a trained buddy with you - someone who knows to grab you at the first sign of something going wrong. Maybe your girlfriend is not that person.

You should definitely seek medical follow-up from a sports doctor. Hopefully, one familiar with diving medicine.

Bad blackouts from dynamic apnea have happened before. I believe one person went into cardiac arrest, but I forget who it was. There are other possible accidents from packing air into your lungs such as an embolism. Those better versed in these problems can explain (ie. your doctor).

However, even if you had an expert buddy, would things have been any different? Sounds like you pushed your body more than you should have. Also, not feeling your lungs burn at 75m is perhaps a sign that you did in fact overbreathe. Hyperventilation blackouts are often preceeding by "feeling fine" and then suddenly losing memory. However, something else physiological might be going on.

Did the lifeguards have any difficulty getting air into your lungs? Did they notice a laryngospasm? This might explain why it took so long to revive you. Are they sure that you had no pulse? Sometimes it is hard to find one in the best of times.

Keep in mind that blood pressure increases dramatically with hypoxia and perhaps some other physical condition made this a problem for you.

So again, get fully checked out.

From now on I would suggest taking things easy until you have some more information.

Hope you feel better...

Pete

 

[spfoto]

I can only describe what you did as foolish and stupid and I speak from experience. You had nothing in the way of safety cover on hand, the two life guards couldn't provide adequate cover and shouldn't have been expected to. You didn't brief them on your dynamic and what you were going to do and what to expect if you had a samba.

Where was your cover in the water?????????????

Exceeding your limits by such a massive amount in one go is “MAD” and could have resulted as it almost did in your death.

I myself had a similar laps in judgment, excided my limits when told NOT to, going from 63M dynamic to 93M and had a samba, surprise surprise. To my instructors dismay and great disappointment. I did have cover and was in a pool full of qualified freedivers and SCUBA instructors at the time but I still managed to make a complete ass of myself, a moment I truly regret. I learned from my poor judgment and look back on it as a “maverick” moment that I don't intent to repeat in the future. I completely brushed aside my training and for what, a samba and a lack of trust within my group, something that takes time to rebuild. Big jumps in distance are unsafe as we have both discovered. Small increases and build up your distance as I was told in my training are the key with adequate safety cover. Safety is paramount in this sport.

If nothing else I hope you learn from you bad judgment as I did, and other people reading this thread take heed.

 

[fcallagy]

Java thanks for posting it took some courage to do that but the responses above were what I would have expected and said anyway. Glad your alive and learnt the lesson others have not.

 

[TRITON]

As people said............we're glad to have you alive.
This just reminds how freediving CAN be dangerous and that we shouldn't practise it without supervision.

 

[java]

Thank u all for ur comments. I'm also happy that I am alive Life is so beautiful !

But, as I was afraid, many of u think that I have completely dismissed all safety rules and done some mad things. That was not the point of my thread. What better safety one can expect in public shallow pool, than two professional life savers walking alongside diver over the whole distance? My only mistake was, that I didn't tell them, that I can lose consciousness. Because I had no reason to tell them, as I have never had any sambas or blackouts, even when I pushed me much more (in attendance of my instructor).

I told u my story to point out that cardiac arrest may occur during the breath holds - what is much more serious and dangerous than just samba or BO. I was wondering if someone have experienced anything similar. What could be reason of this and how can one avoid such accidents?

From time to time I was practicing interval breath holds on exercise bicycle without anyone watching me. Such training caused much more hypoxia feeling and legs getting extremely tired. Now I am very confused. If it is possible to get cardiac arrest during such exercise, than nobody can save me and it is easy to pass away in cellar gym of my dorms.

Ok, lets see what doctor tells (meeting her in 2 hours).

Cheers J

 

[spfoto]

"I told u my story to point out that cardiac arrest may occur during the breath holds - what is much more serious and dangerous than just samba or BO."


Whilst under water without the correct safety cover a cardiac arrest, samba and BO all end in the same result. Death


Have you mentioned the incident to your instructor yet and gained his/her expert opinion?

Whilst im glad to see your ok I think you chose not to listen to key elements of the safety rules and suggest strongly you take a refresher.
Unless the life guards have had training to deal with a freediving incident, they dont know what to expect and how to react as you mentioned earlier, they thought your passed out condition was part of the dive.

I hope you recover fully and go back into training with professional guidance and a less cavalier attitude.

 

[naiad]

Java, thankyou for sharing your experience. Very scary stuff. I am glad to know you feel OK now, and hope the doctor gives you the all-clear.

But, as I was afraid, many of u think that I have completely dismissed all safety rules and done some mad things. That was not the point of my thread. What better safety one can expect in public shallow pool, than two professional life savers walking alongside diver over the whole distance? My only mistake was, that I didn't tell them, that I can lose consciousness.

I do not think you are stupid. Training alone is obviously stupid, but you made the understandable mistake of training with lifeguards for supervision. I have done that in the past, before I knew better.

Lifeguards are supervising the pool in general, and not specifically one freediver. Even if they are supervising you well, they are unlikely to know anything about freediving, and how to spot the signs of a samba or blackout. A buddy must be in the pool with you, and must have freediving safety training, not general first aid or scuba safety.

Someone said here on DB, and I agree, that dynamic is the most physically demanding of all the disciplines, and the most likely to produce serious blackouts. In Static and No Limits, there is little physical effort. In the depth disciplines, there is the added pressure of O2 at depth, some rest periods caused by sinking/floating part of the way, and maybe blood shift. In dynamic, there is constant exertion and it is easy to get very seriously hypoxic.

I am not sure about the risk of strain on the heart, as I am not a doctor, but I suspect there is a risk. I have a high heart rate (100-110 during normal relaxed activity), and it soon hits maximum (about 170) if I do any strenuous activity. This results in my getting tired easily. I do not have any heart condition or other serious medical problem, and have been this way for a long time. It does not improve much if I try to keep fit. Because of this, I am careful about things like pushing myself too far with dynamic.

From time to time I was practicing interval breath holds on exercise bicycle without anyone watching me. Such training caused much more hypoxia feeling and legs getting extremely tired. Now I am very confused. If it is possible to get cardiac arrest during such exercise, than nobody can save me and it is easy to pass away in cellar gym of my dorms.

I am not sure about the safety of dry dynamic training such as exercise bikes, and certainly would not recommend it. I started a thread on dry apnea safety.
http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/69746-dry-apnea-safety.html

Dive safe everyone

Lucia

 

[maytag]

[SIZE=-1] Everything was fine, only right part of my heart was a bit bigger than normal. I haven't inhaled any water, but nevertheless I had to stay there for one night. On the next day - again full check = everything OK. Even heart returned to its normal sizes.[/SIZE]

Does anyone (effatah?) know if transient cardiomyopathy/enlargement of the heart is a typical finding after this sort of event?

While there were some real apparent safety issues that contributed to this, might want to make sure there are no underlying heart problems, either. Seems enlarged heart is not an unusual autopsy finding among young athletes who just "drop dead." Would be a tragic red herring, even if highly unlikely.

Best wishes for innumerable years of safe and happy diving.

 

[naiad]

There have been several threads with people describing rapid heart rate and arrythmia after freediving.
http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/64075-heart-issues.html
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/68668-rapid-heart-rates.html
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/33528-irregular-heartbeat-after-max-static.html

I avoid any training which raises my CO2 level very high, as this causes a great increase in heart rate and I am worried about the risks. For me, hypoxia does not seem to have the same effect, but everyone is different. I do not think it is a good idea to do any training which causes unusual heart rates, even dry.

 

[TRITON]

Does apnea biking have some special side effects to the cardiovascular system.....?I do my apnea biking on my home bicycle so it's surely less risky
that doing it on the road and possibly have a BO and fall...

 

[naiad]

I would not recommend it. Even falling off an exercise bicycle could have nasty results.

 

[Jon]

Re: Almost died at my dynamic attempt

Java,

Thanks for sharing and I'm glad your alright.

I'm not going to beat you up on not having proper cover because I'm just glad you shared your experience with all of us on here, and I'm sure you've beat yourself up enough already.

In tech diving, and more specifically cave diving, there is something called "accident analysis". It's how we can all dissect an accident to learn from it. If people never post their foibles than we are all condemned to repeat those same mistakes and knowledge never gets passed along.

I commend you on posting information about your accident- and the lumps you've taken from some on the board. It's not an easy thing to do as no one wants to appear to have made a mistake, but it's through those mistakes that we all learn.

I would like to encourage more people to feel free to tell us about their "incidents/accidents" so that we all may learn from them.

Be safe,

Jon

 

[Veronika]

Hi,

also in the sense of accident analysis I think that some points need clarification.

J, I think that I know you and have dived with you. I am glad that you are still alive and I hope that Roswita just had good news for you. I also hope that concerning the following statements you do not get me wrong.
You are a freediving beginner. Your girlfriend, as nice as she was when I met her, has not had many points of contact with freediving so far. Perhaps it was not the best idea to tell her to be your safety diver. It for sure was not a good idea to ask the life guards to do that job. You even knew that up front.
Contrary to what you state I have seen several Sambas at attempts of yours, many of which were quite strong. You were told to please never ever dive without CLOSE supervision since you obviously are, in fact, quite prone to Sambas and BOs.
Unfortunately none of us was informed that you train in some pool all alone. That's a shame especially since even during Summer we do some club training. PLEASE have a look at www.freediving.at to arrange some meetings. There are several people around who would happily do some training with you.

Last but not least: It took very long to gain the trust of some of Viennas pools. It would be nice if you could tell me where exactly I must now expect to be yelled at and told to "get the hell out of here" the next time I ask if I can do some freediving in the pool.


If you, J, aren't the guy I am just thinking of, I apologize. In this case I would nevertheless be cool to get in touch with you. I am sure that some non-solo training can be arranged so that something like that will never happen gain. My mobile number is +43 699 81 31 4290. I am not in Vienna right now but will be back from Saturday on. Feel free to call me anytime.


Veronika

 

[laminar]

If indeed you are the person Veronika thinks you are, J, I'd advise you to work with her and other freedivers in your area to work things out. Training in apnea in a pool is a luxury that few freedivers enjoy because of incidents like yours. I've seen it happen many times in my city of pools telling freedivers that they are no longer welcome, for a variety of reasons less distressing and obvious than cardiac arrest.

And also, your life is at stake.

Peter

 

[Mad Max]

Hi J.

We also know each other, I just saw you once or twice in training. The last time when the ORF was in the Südstadt I also saw a small Samba. So don't tell around you never had one. A Samba must not be recognized by the diver himself, but a experienced diver should see it. I saw a lot in the past, in training and in competition.

By the way life guards aren't good safetydivers at all, as you said they walked along the pool. If you had trained with Veronica or other divers in Vienna, the safety diver is always in the pool, not more than 2m beside you. If one of them had been in the water they maybe would have seen some bubles coming out of your mouth, first sign of BO.
Because what i think what happend is: You said you can only remember 3 and a half lap. So you blacked out at 88m or so. (Maybe you heard the story about Herbert blacking out, pulled out of the water and was still finswimming, like a fish on dry land) So you made the 100m and then stay under water, if a freediving safetydiver didn't pull you up at 88 after rhe first sign of BO the diver would pull you up after the 100m. In the end you would have a normal BO, and no cardiac arrest. But you stayed under water and I would say you drowned.

I know why you trained alone, I also did in my beginnings, but I'm the guy who just BO in only one of about 15 competitions (with no sambas, all attempts clean) so I know my limits, but I don't train alone.

As Veronica said you're a freediving beginner, sorry for my words but you have no idea what freediving is all about. I remember your interview with the ORF: Interviewe:"Is it dangerous" --> You:" Yes it it very dangerous" --> I:"So why do you do that?" --> You:" Because of the adrenalin kick".
Never heard from a freediver who's doing that because of the kick. Because if your dive works fine you don't get any adrenalin kick.

So my oppinion: Stop training, read as much as possible about freediving (on deeper blue), join us in training, do a course/klinic (for example with Dieter Baumann, very strict guy, but one of the best trainer). At a course you will see a lot of videos with sambas and BO, so you get known to that stuff. Go to competions to get in contact with other divers, there you will hear a lot of stories about Sambas and BO's.

Happy your still here, but be careful, buddy.

Markus

 

[BennyB]

Sometimes it's hard to detect your own samba unless people tell you that you had one. I distinctly recall at the world championships surfacing from my dynamic, doing my surface protocol and noticing that I could sense my elbow was twitching a little bit, but not much. When I looked at the video it was my elbow, arms, head all having a good twitch. I would never have known my head was twitching like it was.

Glad to hear you got out of this one relatively ok. Learn as much as you can from it.

Cheers,
Ben