Angle or no angle?

[..Sam..]

I'm thinking of buying a pair of Freediving StereoFins Classic but I'm not sure whether or not to go for the angle.
The angle is actually cheaper than the non.
Just looking for some advantages and disadvantages for angles vs no angle.

Also somewhat of a silly question but if anyone has ordered from leader is that the price for one fin or 2? Because it says quantity down the bottom just a little unsure.


Cheers,
http://www.leaderfins.com/cgi-bin/form.cgi/63eng?id=244&tm=1264142214#

 

[Gugi]

Hi Sam,
I don't know why your question left unattended thus far, but it's fundamental for our understanding the fin's usage. Here what I think about:

Let's first clarify what the purpose of the angle is:
To obtain a maximum hydrodynamics and best performance of the fins, they should be an elongation of the legs and especially of the tibia. Here below is the scheme of the ankle articulation and everyone could imagine where the projection of the blade will be in case of lack of angle on it.

The result is going to be a painful crick of the ankle joint in case of frontal push and low efficiency in the back push of the fins. That's the task of the angle of the blades - to straighten the vector of the fin toward the vertical pushing movement of the legs in both directions.
All we can see these days the efforts of the fin producers are to increase the bend's angle of the foot pockets and respectively the angle of the blades and in this sense (IMHO) I'm wondering why is still possible blades without angle to exist on the market... ?

***(Sorce of the picture: Universita' Degli Studi Di Padova, Analisi Biomeccanica Della Pinnegiata Subacquea E Valutazione D'Effizienca Delle Pinne, In participation of Marco Bonfanti - owner of C4)

 

[..Sam..]

Thanks Gugi,
Brilliant answer. The only thing is why are the angled blades cheaper than the normal ones? LeaderFins.com have a look at the stereo fin classic and sterofins with angle.

I know that all the stuff you saying is true and I'm sure its better but there is something about no angle that I like.

I think more research, I have a pair or gara 3000s non angle and a pair of some fins with an angle. I imagine that it wouldn't really be a fair test though because the garas are very responsive for a plastic fin and the others are a bit sloppy.....

Thoughts?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I have Matrix fiberglass blades with no angle, and Edge fiberglass blades with angle. Under water, I don't think I can notice a bit of difference in performance.

Swimming on the surface, the no angle blades are much less efficient. I had to adjust the way I kicked. It really wasn't difficult to make the adjustment, but if I had to swim against a current or fast, then it didn't work as well.

Of course I'm a spearfisherman, so I have to swim on the surface. I guess that isn't a concern for pure freedivers.

 

[..Sam..]

Thanks Bill,
I do a bit of surface swimming where I am. The water doesn't get deep fast enough.
Is the angle an all round better better performance everywhere?
The angle ones I have just seem to lack a bit...that may just be the cheap plastic they are made from. They do go well on the surface...will have a play in my pool this arvo and get a better grasp with both.
Cheers,

 

[Gugi]

... The only thing is why are the angled blades cheaper than the normal ones? LeaderFins.com have a look at the stereo fin classic and sterofins with angle.
.... I have a pair or gara 3000s non angle and a pair of some fins with an angle... I imagine that it wouldn't really be a fair test though because the garas are very responsive for a plastic fin and the others are a bit sloppy.....

Don't know mate, the price policy of this company is something far from the real sensation in the blue... You'd better go asking why only LeaderFins and WaterWay (Capt.Nemo) produce non angled blades yet...? Many divers use and find them good enough, but sometimes it's a matter of habit, because they've had them for years ...

BTW, I've never seen Gara without angle - they all have an angle of 15-17 degrees (had ones, nice fins!). The new Gara Pro even rised to 22 degrees. For me it's much more interestingly why C4 went to 24 degrees with the Skorpio, just for example? If you'd feel better to pay extra for non angled blades, then go ahead. Nothing is most important than to feel good...
My deep conviction is, however, that there is no point of buying non angled fins in 2010...

Regards,
G.

 

[..Sam..]

BTW, I've never seen Gara without angle - they all have an angle of 15-17 degrees (had ones, nice fins!).....
My deep conviction is, however, that there is no point of buying non angled fins in 2010...
G.

Gugi, I think you have convinced me. I had no idea he Garas had an angle, they look flat to me....do love those fins, except for the foot pocket.....I'm going to put the unresponsiveness of the other fins with the bigger angle down to cheapness. Will still give them all a run tonight and see. By the sounds of it straight blades are the way of the past.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Thanks Bill,
I do a bit of surface swimming where I am. The water doesn't get deep fast enough.
Is the angle an all round better better performance everywhere?
The angle ones I have just seem to lack a bit...that may just be the cheap plastic they are made from. They do go well on the surface...will have a play in my pool this arvo and get a better grasp with both.
Cheers,

Since my angled blades work at least as well under water, and definitely better on the surface, I can see no reason to buy straight blades.

The reason I got the straight Matrix from 20 Fathoms several years ago was that they were the first fiberglass blades, or at least the first ones I knew of. They were a huge improvement over my old Esclazez Black angled blades. But right after I got them, 20 Fathoms started offering the angled Edge blades. I decided I would just use the Matrix until they wore out and then get the Edge, but they never wore out. They didn't lose stiffness like plastic blades, and I was afraid they would last longer than I would, so I finally gave up and bought the Edge anyway.

BTW, I use both blades in Picasso Black Team pockets, so that variable is constant.

 

[..Sam..]

Angled it is. They are cheaper too which is a plus.
Now the next part is stiffness. Usually I just go for the softest. But I'd really like to get these fins spot on for what I should be using. I think maybe about the equivalent stiffness of the Gara 3000s, so maybe a medium or soft?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Angled it is. They are cheaper too which is a plus.
Now the next part is stiffness. Usually I just go for the softest. But I'd really like to get these fins spot on for what I should be using. I think maybe about the equivalent stiffness of the Gara 3000s, so maybe a medium or soft?

Its funny that they are cheaper, since 20 Fathoms gets more for the angled than the straight, but no sense arguing.

I'm afraid I haven't used the Garas, so I have no basis for comparison. However, the Matrix and the Edge come in stiffnesses 1 to 5, and I have been very happy with #2 in both of them. Of course I swim around on the surface a lot against the current and don't dive over 50 feet very often. If I did a lot more straight up and down, maybe I would want #3.

I damn sure wouldn't want #4 though. Before I bought my Matrix, I borrowed a pair of #4 to try out. I dropped to the bottom at 55 feet and came up, and I almost got airborne at the surface. But swimming on the surface, I felt like I was slapping the water with a couple of pieces of plywood.

 

[demasoni]

Its funny that they are cheaper, since 20 Fathoms gets more for the angled than the straight, but no sense arguing.

I'm afraid I haven't used the Garas, so I have no basis for comparison. However, the Matrix and the Edge come in stiffnesses 1 to 5, and I have been very happy with #2 in both of them. Of course I swim around on the surface a lot against the current and don't dive over 50 feet very often. If I did a lot more straight up and down, maybe I would want #3.

I damn sure wouldn't want #4 though. Before I bought my Matrix, I borrowed a pair of #4 to try out. I dropped to the bottom at 55 feet and came up, and I almost got airborne at the surface. But swimming on the surface, I felt like I was slapping the water with a couple of pieces of plywood.

I have the Gara 3000 LD and I use them 4-5 times per week. I have also owned the Matrix #3 - no angle. The 3000's are softer than the Matrix #3. If you want something as stiff as the Gara 3000 LD, then I would get the Matrix #2.

I agree with Bill in that the #4 are too stiff. BTW, what are you using the fins for? Spearfishing? Deep diving? All around? Do they need to be tough and durable?

 

[..Sam..]

I have the Gara 3000s HF or just the normal ones. Which are a bit stiffer than the LDs?
Just using them for a bit of everything. So medium would probably work well...
The system used by leader fins is soft-medium-hard-exhard so kinda 1-4ish.
Medium I imagine would give me a fairly easy surface swim and enough power at depth probably nothing deeper than 40m(120ft).

 

[demasoni]

The HF is stiffer the LD for sure.

I forgot to ask, what's your height and weight? Are you really muscular? If you're "average" then it looks like you are probably on the right track.

 

[..Sam..]

I'm about 180cm 65-70kg. Average build. With strange feet. Wide end bit and skinny heels...work that one out. So I'm going with omer foot pockets.

 

[trullalla]

i've seen leaderfins fins once, and wasn't impressed by the hard thick piece of rubber that they put at the base of the blade (from the angle up). it seemed to me that this is how they increase the stiffness in that area instead of working on the layering of the blades. a bit like in the gara 3000 (you will notice this piece of rubber glued in the middle of the blade).
now i can see why you would do that in a plastic blade, but i don't get why doing that in a carbon fiber blade, since you can just use more fiber and make it thicker there...

anybody have an explanation for that?

linda

 

[Gugi]

Linda, you might have in mind not LeaderFins, but SpecialFins. They put this stuff on their blades as angle protection against the blade's crash at the place of bend. At Millenium foot pockets they use, the holes of the mounting screws are at the angle and there are plenty of broken carbon blades at this place due to that. Just making a guess...

 

[..Sam..]

I don't think mine have that, but they do have a length of rubber down the edge of the blade.

 

[trullalla]

thanks gugi, you are so right. i was thinking about specalfins.
and i think your is a very good guess, it must be some srt of protection.

linda

 

[makis olymp]

hello to everyone,
I would like to ask if anybody have any experience with a fins blade of a 33 degrees angle. As i know most of the companies produce fin blades of 22 - 24 angle. I was searching on the Italian CETMA composites company and they produce blades of 33 angle. Since i do not have the opportunity to try such carbon fin before buying it, i would be thankful if anybody have an opinion about it. I am a spear fisherman. Those CETMA carbon fins with pathos footpocket really took my attention but i a not sure about the big angle, if it could create any problem on spearfishing. thanks

 

[ledo2]

hello to everyone,
I would like to ask if anybody have any experience with a fins blade of a 33 degrees angle. As i know most of the companies produce fin blades of 22 - 24 angle. I was searching on the Italian CETMA composites company and they produce blades of 33 angle. Since i do not have the opportunity to try such carbon fin before buying it, i would be thankful if anybody have an opinion about it. I am a spear fisherman. Those CETMA carbon fins with pathos footpocket really took my attention but i a not sure about the big angle, if it could create any problem on spearfishing. thanks

I tried them with their own footpockets in y40. Coming from 2.0 stiffness XXone fins, they were very soft but pushed well. However, for me, the allemani fins felt even better (maybe just better suited to my finning style).