Answer This?

[TampaBrian]

Hello, I just read Pipin Ferreras' Book, "The Dive" What a story..anyhow, after that and glancing over this, I have a few questions which just popped into my head...
1. Are there any dangers of blacking out or samba doing an out of water static by myself, ie. In my bed before I goto sleep....

If I want a longer breath hold, I need less co2 in my blood right?... so..

2. should I hyperventilate myself like Pipin does, or is this dangerous?

My problem is the contractioncs, and pipin said nothing in the book anyhow about them. Just about how he wanted "life giving o2 levels" in his blood....

3. Is there any info on hyperventilating and lowering your co2 levels? Safety?

Thanks again!
-Brian

 

[freediver7]

Don't hyperventilate, that stuff can kill a newbie in the water. Your safer than lobster in my dive bag hyperventilate on your couch. First learn to relax under water. Contact me when you hit two minutes without contractions.

 

[sanso]

Hey Brian,

You will find that this book doesn't have a reputation for being a good source of information here. Also it seems You read it like a training book, which it clearly isn't. Rather treat it like a work of fiction (No, I'm not saying it's all lies, but it clearly isn't a good basis for training)

But to answer Your questions - and those You haven't asked yet :t: Have You read the thread on How to start freediving? Going through that will keep You busy for a while.

The answers in short:
1. You can get hypoxic anywhere, it doesn't matter if You're in the water or not.

Your statement on low CO2 levels and longer holds is plainly wrong, so

2. No You shouldn't play with hyperventilation! Doing Your reading You'll find out why.

3. Actually, You're the first person ever to ask that. :t - but seriously there's lots of info here - lots and lots. look through the beginners section(s) and You'll be happy.
Maybe consider taking a course, I found that incredibly worthwhile.

Stay safe,

 

[TampaBrian]

I actually read through the whole thing on beginners forums...unless i missed something...i did find a lot on hyperventilation, and I do see how its wrong now......i suppose I should not even take a huuuuuge breath the way i have been??? Just a simple deep breath??? I thought the idea was to relax and get as much air in your lungs as possible on that last breath....but someone said something about takeing too deep of a breath.... I did my first CO2 table last night before bed..My PB is 2:15 and I seemed to do the whole table with hardly any contractions???? weird.....maybe i was just so tired and relaxed that it was no problem....

I'll just keep reading, hoping I find something good on how to relax and "breath up"? before I take that last gulp of air, and how big of a gulp I should be taking. Thanks for the advice as well.

 

[TampaBrian]

Oh, and I didnt read the book like a training, I actually read it like the love story it is, but I did make my own assumptions of things by what he said to try and get an idea...I see that I shouldn't though now...I'll have to find some good solid material in a book somewhere...any recommendations?

 

[trux]

Go to advanced search, type in "hyperventilation" and change the selection box to "search titles only" (otherwise you'll get too many hits). There are several threads speaking about it, for example this one is not too bad: http://forums.deeperblue.net/static...tion-good-bad.html?highlight=hyperventilation

Basically, hyperventilation is not only extremely dangerous (especially for beginners), but also suppresses the mammalian diving response, so you usually actually spend more oxygen than without it, although it feels easier.

As for Pipin's book, I highly recommend looking at this thread and eventually reading the book too to get a look at it from another angle: http://forums.deeperblue.net/genera...tre-book-released.html?highlight=pipin+carlos

There are plenty freediving books, but currently one of the best is still the one of Umberto Pelizzari: books pelizzari @ APNEA.cz
Other books are listed here: books @ APNEA.cz
A nice review is here: Apnea.nl - Apnea.nl - Book: A Overvieuw of Free Diving Manuals

 

[Geoff]

HI, TampaBrian,You,ve had some good advice about NOT hyperventilating,the level of CO2 in your blood is EXTREEMLY inportant!.Do not mess with it!.It,s the only mechanism you have that tells you that you need to breath,lower it,(by hyperventilating) & you could go "unconsious", as your brain will close down through lack of Oxygen,(you will no nothing about this),there you will be, swimming about,quite happerly,then, BANG!,your out, DEAD!...........Forgive me for repeating what other people have already said, as I can see that you now realise, "not to do this",but this message is also for other people.Safe diving,.. Geoff.

 

[octopus]

If I want a longer breath hold, I need less co2 in my blood right?...

Wrong. And dangerous.

Your urge to breathe comes from the high level of CO2 in your blood.
Your blackout comes from the low level of O2 in your blood.
Basically, by lowering your CO2 levels, you are just tricking your body into believing that it can last longer.

I’ll keep it simple (numbers are just to illustrate the point - please do not nitpick).

Perhaps your breath hold time is 3’00” (and you never know this time exactly as it depends on many variables).
If you start your breath hold with normal CO2 levels, your contractions start say at 1’30”. You struggle through it and you end up at 3’00”.
If you start your breath hold with lowered CO2 levels, your contractions start say at 2’30”. Contractions are really strong and you still give in at 3’00” (all other things being equal).
In both cases you'll black out if you overstay 3'00".

Say you hyperventilate and then dive. It takes you, say, 30” to reach 20m. You spend next 2’00” looking at the interesting fish. You have blown off some of your CO2 and your body is telling you “everything is ok”. You feel comfortable. You should have spent at most 1’ looking at the fish, but you felt ok and overstayed. Then at 2’30” you have your first contraction. You decide to surface. You start working your fins against water resistance and gravity, burning intensively O2 and have, say, 40” until you hit the surface. Contractions are hitting you really hard, expanding lungs are struggling to extract any remaining O2 and at 3’10” you black out. This is no longer big deal for you, as your brain switches off. Effectively you are no more. Only those that live can feel pain and sorrow - your family and your friends.

So if you do not know your exact breath hold time for given circumstances, when is the time to surface? 1’00”, 1’30”, 2’00” or when your body tells you to? This is rather difficult to say even for more experienced diver without being hooked to the various instruments. Most freedivers will combine what their body tells them with their experience of their previous breath holds. Freediving is dangerous as it is, but tampering with your CO2 alarm makes it a real gamble. CO2 levels might not be an ideal alarm for freediving, but that is what we have. Hyperventilated CO2 alarm is useless and brings no benefits for breath hold time anyway.

Now, to increase your breath hold time you need to optimise your O2 consumption and increase your O2 availability. This forum deals with the ways how to do it.

 

[Tony Babowicz]

Brian, As a newcomer in the proper and safe way to freediving myself, I strongly suggest that you take a course (DiveFIT is a great one). Its well worth the money, and you'll be amazed by what your body can do while still playing it safe. My static went from aprrox. 2min.30sec. to over 5min. with relative ease. I'm now a much safer freediver and my performance is increasing (depth as well as time) almost everytime I enter the water. I can't say enough good about this course. Checkout their website. DiveFIT - freediving, monofin, breath hold, spearfishing, snorkeling . After you take a course, come over and dive with me and my buddies. Tony Babowicz

 

[Kwai]

Don't hyperventilate, that stuff can kill a newbie in the water. Your safer than lobster in my dive bag hyperventilate on your couch. First learn to relax under water. Contact me when you hit two minutes without contractions.

Can a newbie do that for two minutes?

 

[TampaBrian]

Can a newbie do that for two minutes?

I'm getting close!I did my co2 table last night and my static time for that is 1:10, which is half my personal best, I think I can do a better personal best though...I haven't tried for a record in a couple weeks. Which i'll try tonight for! that way I can increase my static time.

 

[TampaBrian]

Don't hyperventilate, that stuff can kill a newbie in the water. Your safer than lobster in my dive bag hyperventilate on your couch. First learn to relax under water. Contact me when you hit two minutes without contractions.

i finally hit 2 minutes, now what? I'm contacting you.

 

[Kwai]

i finally hit 2 minutes, now what? I'm contacting you.

Bravo!!! :friday

 

[tbgsub]

I used to take time with static practice, untill I moved to a place where I can get in the water and practice practical dynamic apnea skills for spearfishing and photography. I feel that, having known local CNMI Spearfishermen who have apnea experience beyond 30 years, who Hyperventilate, and have BO'ed, and are really lucky to still be around, that this practice is ridiculously dangerous at any depth, even in Shallow pools, people have been known to go SWABO and DIE in 3 feet of water!!

my best recommendaiton: read Dave Sipperly's Freedive again and again.
Keep your progress conservative. static practice matters most in the three to four month runup to a depth attempt with a good diet, and extensive cardio exercise to imporve your vital capacity and your ability to process O2 at sea level. keep in mind that most of the record breakers these days have been apnea diving since childhood, and have developed a lifelong adaptation to freedive stresses. simply put they are more developed by virtue of their growing into a sport that they naturally excell in.

What matters most for freediving and spearfishing is Dynamic Apnea, with actual diving, and surfacing, and noteing your trends, with an eye on your surface interval. your surface time should be twice what your dive time is (breathing slowly, deeply but calmly and not excessivley) to evacuate your lungs of CO2 sufficiently before attempting another dive. (NOT HYPERVENTILLATING!)

The US Navy Seals guidebook recommends no more than Three-to-Four close breaths to breath up. anything more is pushing into the envelope of Blackout, especially if your are expecting to have consistent 2+ min dives. I would say keep it to 1:30-1:40 mins respectively for the first couple (weeks-months) of diving, and then up the time by taking more time at the surface between dives to clear out the lungs and build CHI, or calmness. Extend your stay at the bottom by only a few more seconds over your last dive and dont try to push into minutes. your dive times will vary depending on water temperature, anxiety, clarity of water (this one makes a big difference mentally) and many other factors.

Also through out the day you will notice your first 4-6 dives will be short of your expected performance untill your mammalian reflex is kicking in properly. then you can expect 10-15 dives of maximal performance ; depending on your O2 capacity and health; and that performance will slowly degrade as you become fatigued. Know when to call it a day, or be subject to potentially calling it a life.

if you really want to improve your dynamic apnea, get instruction, and use a freedive watch with a PC download of your diving trends. I use the Cressy EDY, and I dont regret it. I set alarms for my max allowed time and depth to retain some degree of safety. I keep it at 1:30 and 65ft. even though I am capable of a static of 3:30 without contractions, or going past 80ft for 1:57 (for me that is beginning to push my comfort level beyond what I want) with the alarms, during the dive, I can decide to stay over or continue deeper after the alarm for a FEW SECONDS, or listen to my instincts to surface.

what is important is to know your limits, and not overextend them with the expectation of becomming an overnight sensation in the freediving world. That can get you dead real quick without proper training.

"Please proceed with caution Friend.
and enjoy the silent scenery, its rather breath taking isnt it?"

TBGSUB

 

[TampaBrian]

Wow, thats some great information. Honestly, I don't really dive, and I don't have a great diet, and im not in great shape at all. I can do 2:30 without contractions once my mammalian dive reflex kicks in out of water. I only do static, I will never go deep, and all I really want to do is be able to hit a 4 or 5 minute PB, and consistently be able to do 4 minutes. I will never push the envelope, I never want to drown so i stay out of the water. I don't do it so much for the sport of freediving as i do the personal goal factor. I swim a bit for exercise a few times a week.
I can hit 3:00 - 3:30 a few times a week depending on my "thought pattern and mood"? I can always do a 2:30 after about 2 breat holds. I usually start off with a 1:30, then a 2:00 always keeping about 3 minutes between and i often, maybe once a week so extreme co2 tables, which is a 1 minute, then one deep breath then another minute, then one deep breath, and it keeps going. I can do that 8 times consistantly, have no need to want to do more because that seems to be a very good exercise, and its not a matter of coming close to BO, it just gets hard to hold those contractions for so long. I could only his 2:30 with a tough 3:00 PB until I changed my breathing habits, I will never hyperventilate becaue i think its crazy, but I was doing 5 second inhales and a 10 second exhale. It wasn't until I stopped focusing on time and started just making sure I was slowly exhaling as much as i could to get all the bad air out and slowly inhaling as much as i could. I say slowly because it feels like i have to since im getting so much air, i'm very careful not to cross over into it being hyperventilation.
All this being said, any comments or suggestions other than just keep practicing? At this point i feel like I am reaching my maximum possible hold for my comfort, I think just training and getting my body used to more is all that will help.

Believe me, I'm very satisfied with how far I've come and am in no hurry for that 4 minute or 5 minute. I want it to come easily, whenever with proper training. I think 3:30 is something to be very proud of and it makes me happy to know how far i've come.
Thanks for all your info everyone, without this forum, I could never be where i'm at.
-Brian

 

[tbgsub]

thats cool.
I seem to remember that the body will black out above water and shut off the brain, but then sort of soft reset, and begin unconsciously breathing at some point, depending on your bodies orientation and level of intoxication if any. often parents falsley worry about threats from obstinate children who hold their breath till red in the face, I say let em go blue, and when they wake up, SMACK EM GOOD!! if you are doing this only at the surface before bed, you might consult a physician who can better explain the process. Do you use any kind of lung expander? I do, and let me tell you, after breathing through it for 10-20 cycles before bedtime, that I high am on the extra oxygen from deep breathing all night, and my rest seems phenominal. The lung expander is working your diaphram muscles to open deeper, and expand your lungs more, and improve your vital capacity, which allows a longer breath hold on an unforced inhale. Only high Cardio exercise (road bycling for 5-20 miles a few times per week conservatively is a good start) will improve your O2 processing. For you, being active in any way consistently will do it.

best of luck, I am sure you can reach 4 minutes with some dedication, and possibly 5 or more. Beyond that you will want to focus on diet, and serious exercise conditioning.
do you know your vital lung capacity? it would be good to know your capacity, as well as your CO2 MAX. You can get that from a personal trainer, and you will learn alot about your body in the process. just so you know the world record is 10 minutes, which is about 5 minutes past the death knell for most of us.

P.S.

I hope you didnt think my last post, or this one, was rude in any way, I just intend on representing things as realistic as possible without sugar coating anything. on a personal note,
Welcome to our community of breath holders. There are almost more opinions than there are members.

Respectfully yours,

TBGSUB in SAIPAN

 

[TampaBrian]

no, i actually loved your post...so this expander...how do i get one?

 

[tbgsub]

Re: lung expander

well you have two options really,
you can go to the link and get soaked for 29 US + shipping and handling and wait two weeks.
LINK:> Expand a Lung Breathing Resistance Exerciser

or you can be creative and make one with a garden hose segment and a garden hose stopper this evening after a 1hour trip to your local hardware store. you will just have to figure out how to either drill or slot the threads to allow a gradual ammount of air through eventually constricting to nearly nothing by tightening. it cant be that hard, its not rocket science! Its a freaking hose with a mouthpiece!! Hell! you could Bend and tie your old snorkel in half and breath through the kink like you are pregnant and practising Lamaz breathing!!

I bought mine befor thinking, so I have the expensive one. and I feel dummer for the act, but I think it works, just be cautious not to over exert your lungs by trying too hard! you shouldnt go red in the face, and shouldnt have bulging veigns in your neck in using this device. remember your Alveoli; although flexible, are only fractions of a millimeter thick, and bursting only one = Aneurism = bad news even at the surface, so go easy.

Constrict what is comfortable untill you are comfortable with less air!

you can work in your breathing tables with this device, and you will notice some improvement almost right away!

good luck.

P.S. if it doesnt work for you, you can always put one of those zany little noise fans inside the tube and run around like HARPO MARX!!! LOL!!

 

[harbour seal]

hey guys,

breathing through a pen cap will have the same effect as an expander.

pens with different sized openings make it easier/harder as does obstructing the air passage inside the pen. i have also heard of using the mouthpiece of an old snorkel to build one. save your money and make one yourself. one cautionary note is to beware of accidentally inhaling the pen cap and choking. i attached rubber wristbands to a couple different sized pen caps with some fishing line to act as a stopper against inhaling the whole rig. the pen caps worked great but i never ended-up using them that much though and was glad not to have bought a real one when i was starting out (it would be a dust collector now).

if you are trying to improve your static ability then regular practice of the co2 and o2 tables (with rest days) is going to be MUCH more helpful than any expander device. particularly if you add diaphragm and chest stretching exercises to your regime.

in addition, activities where you hold your breath WHILE exercising are better training for improving dynamics/freediving than practicing statics alone. apnea walking and apnea exercise bike are two dry land examples that are widely used in this regard. the key seems to be designing the training to be similar to your dives, such as having motionless breathe-up and recovery periods before and after the active "dives". you can also vary factors such as recovery times and exercise intensity to better match the style of diving to which you aspire.

when you are starting out, dry land breath-holds (eg, tables, statics, apnea walking, etc) have a wider benefit beyond just increasing tolerance. these exercises also help you become familiar with the intense assault of feelings that come with long breath holds, while still in the relative safety of your home/local park. see if you can differentiate the feelings associated with high co2, low co2 and low o2 respectively. try different breathe-up lengths and patterns and notice the effect on ensuing breath-holds and ensuing urge to breathe. the beauty of an activity like apnea walking (on grass) is you can really push your limits by yourself and still be relatively safe. my one and only samba was on grass. it was a bit scary but i learned a great deal about my true "lights-out" limit and have avoided repeating the experience.

as your abilities improve, the more tailored your training is to your performance goals the more efficient your actual progress (eg., training only statics will not help improve your dynamics, etc.).

cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada

ps.
here on db there is tons of excellent information on all aspects of training/equipment/freediving at your disposal via the search engine. once you get started you can read for months, literally. enjoy.

 

[billieball]

While you're at it, why don't you read the OTHER side to the story written by Pippin? It's by Carlos Serra, and it's called The Last Attempt.
--Billie