Anxiety at depth and packing

[demasoni]

Hey guys and girls,

I just returned from Martin Stepanek's training camp in Kona and what a great time and huge learning experience that was. Martin really knows his stuff and anyone who wants to improve their diving with a mono needs to seek his advice first! I need to get other opinions on one matter though please.

One of my main goals for the camp was to learn how to breath-up on my back and pack whilst rolling over then duck diving with a monofin down the line with a lanyard attached. This was a goal for me because I thought it would take me deeper and let me stay longer. Previously, I always dove with a snorkel on inhale without packing (72m CWT PB) as it was more comfortable.

I tried several 60m dives with packing and I always felt a tremendous sense of anxiety when approaching the turn. The feeling was akin to a sense of wanting to abort the dive and get the heck out of there. I felt as if I could force my way down and continue but what a miserable proposition that would be. I thought about it and it didn't make any sense - I have more air and this is what is generally taught as the superior way and everyone else packs so what's going on?

I was getting frustrated with my packing experiences thus far as I actually dreaded each dive. On my last day, after getting over a cold, I did another 60m dive with my old-style snorkel breathe-up and no packing for comparison. I approached the turn without any anxiety and fear and overall the experience was much better. I wanted to dive again and again!

Now, are my negative feelings at depth caused by packing and possibly some type of narcosis, or as Martin suggested as I'm new to packing, any tension I have at the surface is brought down with me?

Thanks

 

[chrismar]

From personal experience, you take any anxiety you have on the surface down with you. See how you feel on 'easy' dives (ie. dives you feel are so easy as to almost not be worth doing). Do a few with packing and see if they continue to cause anxiety. Then progress from there, staying within yourself.

I would be moderately suprised if it's a narcosis thing, but I guess it is possible. Are you feeling bad from a reasonably shallow depth?

 

[demasoni]

Thanks Chrismar,

I've done some packing dives to around 20m without the negative feelings. On my FRC warm-up, which I believe simulates a depth past 60m, I don't have any uglies at all even though I feel quite compressed. So, I think the source of the feelings are not pressure induced, but depth or something else induced.

I don't think I experienced narcosis before via a snorkel breath-up, but perhaps due to packing I've finally experienced narcosis and the experience was a negative one? Are there positive FREEDIVING narcosis episodes?

 

[Mullins]

Packing makes you a lot more buoyant and gives you more buoyancy change, so the dives usually feel worse because you're doing more work on the way down.

 

[cdavis]

I can't comment on freediving narcosis, don't dive deep enough. However, for some people (me) narcosis on scuba produces distinct feelings of discomfort, anxiety, a general feeling of "GET ME OUTA HERE" To me it seemed like the loss of fine control and bodily consciousness inherent in narcosis was what bothered me. Sounds like what you are feeling.

Packing should increase susceptibility to narcosis, but I have no idea how much.

Connor

 

[Tony Babowicz]

Josh,
I have to agree that the tension you have o the surface is brought down with you. I only got to dive with you on Monday, but if you recall, After my second dive Martin suggested that when I roll over, to relax for a second before I began my descent. He noticed that I was tense on the previous dive. I am new to packing as well and I think it will just take practice to get used to that feeling. I think having a cold might have been a factor as well. I also added a little weight as to keep my neutral bouyancy closer to where it is without packing. My non packing neutral bouyancy is about 11meters. With another pound added, my packing bouyancy is just under 17meters. I hope to come back out there and dive with you guys again. Take care.

 

[BennyB]

At the depths you are diving you are definitely within range of getting narcosis. Possibly the addition of a couple of litres of air may be pushing you over that narcosis threshold - more air = more nitrogen = more likelihood of narcosis and the symptoms that yourself and Connor have experienced.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[telekonos]

Intresting discussion ... let me share my personal experience with packing ...

I dived below 70meters without packing just a normal inhalation from snorkel face down .. my vc is then 5.5 L .. the dives i usually did 60 + were all comfortable and enjoyed a lot ....

when i pack .. i get huge huge contractions on the way down .. and its just total misery ... hence i never been able to go to depth with packing and i got lung squeeze doing this ( main reason i beleive was contractions at depth ) ...

i never pack after this and i mainly enjoy dives with less and less air mainly i find FRC dives the most enjoyable form of freediving ...

????? i cannot understand to this day why packing does not increased my performance ???? intresting how some packs a lot , and perform amazing dives ... wonder whats the secret .. but i personally don't except the idea of packing anymore

 

[Erik]

When I was a scubadiver, hitting 60 metres on air (I know, I know...) was the point where an impending sense of DOOM hit me. I could always feel the narcosis onset at 40 metres and it was pleasant, but at 60 it changed dramatically.
You ARE getting narced below 30 metres to some degree as all of us are, even on 1 breath. If you have any fear it will multiply exponentially when you hit your "strong" narcosis depth. Especially adding extra nitrogen/CO2 for good measure.

If you're determined to keep packing then it's just a matter of becoming comfortable at those depths- you worked through fear at shallower depths before. If not you could ask the residual volume freedivers how good they feel (and less narced) at the depths you're talking about and explore that.
Have fun,
Erik

 

[demasoni]

Telekonos,

Interesting that you have experienced similar circumstances with packing. As of two years ago, my non-packing VC was 4.6L, and at that time all my dives were done non-packing face down with snorkel. I agree FRC dives are very comfortable and I assume that when I inhale with a snorkel, my pre-dive lung volume must be between FRC and VC due to the pressure of water, the constriction of my wetsuit, and the dead air space of my snorkel. Yet, with this reduced air intake, my dives felt enjoyable and constructive.

When you packed, at what depth did you get contractions which resulted in lung squeeze? Sometimes I get these when I'm not completely relaxed, but I don't think they were hypoxic contractions, rather, pressure contractions.

????? i cannot understand to this day why packing does not increased my performance ???? intresting how some packs a lot , and perform amazing dives ... wonder whats the secret .. but i personally don't except the idea of packing anymore

I have wondered the same thing many times. I always saw packing as a way to surpass a barrier. For example, one I've heard before from divers is "you can't equalize anymore because you've run out of mouthfill air and you need the extra packing air so that you can fill at a greater depth." So instead of filling say at 30m, with packing, you can now fill at 40m.

Erik, the verdict is still out on packing for depth, but I'm tending to like my snorkel more and more. I do see the benefit for packing for dynamics, the effects of depth seems to make it more complicated though.

 

[Bill]

Let me add two cents here Josh. I'm very interested in what you are doing and kicking myself for not joining you last week.

Without going into numbers, I can always dive deeper with packing than without but, max packing causes big problems. Packing for static produced some interesting comparisons and I'm just coming around to thinking that it is impossible to leave problems on the surface.

If you're not comfortable at any time during the hour or so before a dive, your dive will be affected.

 

[watts]

Have you tried packing through your snorkle. Its a bit tricky at first but you wouldnt have to flip over and you can keep your face down in your breathe up.

 

[demasoni]

Hey Bill,

What big problems were you experiencing with max packing if you don't mind me asking?

Mullins mentioned that greater buoyancy change from packing results in greater workload for the freediver and thus the diver feels worse. I wonder what is scientifically happening to produce negative sensations from greater workload. I can only think of the greater Co2 and waste products produced. I don't think the physical sensation of all that packed air pushing out against one's closed epiglottis would bother you too much since as soon as one descends, volume is quickly halved again and again.

As BennyB and others have pointed out, narcosis could be an issue as well, the problems of which are only compounded with the extra air of packing.

Actually, I do recall asking Martin about the possibility of getting narcosis from packing, and he said, "we don't know enough about narcosis." I'm actually not too sure what he meant by that though...

Watts, I never tried packing via my snorkel, it is definitely worth a try though after learning how. At least the stress would be less than trying to turn over.

 

[demasoni]

I found this interesting tidbit from the DB archives of Alun George's interview with Umberto that could shed some light on the topic:

DB: Most top freedivers pack before diving. I heard that you never practised packing. Can you tell why is this? Do you not think it’s beneficial?

UP: Jaques Mayol was my master and I started freediving according to his teaching, and so I breathe the way he taught me. I think when you breathe completely relaxed using the diaphragm you cannot increase the amount of air in your lungs. I would never use packing because you need to feel relaxed when you go in the water.

For example, I could understand why freedivers use this technique when diving deep because the water pressure reduces the lung volume and so it doesn’t feel uncomfortable. So the sensation of explosion in your chest dsappears with depth. I could never do statics after packing because I cannot reach the relaxing sensation that I’m used to feeling when I freedive. This particular mentality or philosophy of freediving was passed to me by Mayol.

I remember the first time I met him in January 1990 and he invited me to train with him in Elba. At the end of our first training session he told me “try to use your mind more and not your muscles”. He also told me “if you want to stay here for some months and train with me, then you must forget your watches and depth gauges and whatever keeps you connected to the external world. When you go underwater you’re in another world and you forget your nature”. He said “if you want to stay here, then go in the water completely free and don’t check your depth, but make sure that you feel better each time you go in the water. Try to feel stronger sensations each time you dive. This has to be your goal from now on”. When you look for the pleasure it’s not helpful to pack. Packing is forcing the technique. Relaxed breathing is at the base of all Yoga techniques.

 

[Bill]

Josh
"....... because you need to feel relaxed when you go in the water."

That says it all. If I pack more than 50% for static, I can't relax. Of course you rapidly lose the volume on a dive but it's difficult to get relaxed again. Pack or no pack, mask or no mask, constant or free immersion, something happens around 45 meters and the least distraction ends my clearing. Narcosis seems to be a factor. It's hard to remember details of the dive.

I have made a few good dives by stopping at 40, but usually when I try that the thought of the time distracts me enough to forget clearing.

 

[Mullins]

Mullins mentioned that greater buoyancy change from packing results in greater workload for the freediver and thus the diver feels worse. I wonder what is scientifically happening to produce negative sensations from greater workload. I can only think of the greater Co2 and waste products produced.

Yes, I was just referring to the CO2, lactic etc. CO2 is a big contributor to narcosis.

 

[efattah]

Yes, I was just referring to the CO2, lactic etc. CO2 is a big contributor to narcosis.

I agree with Dave. When packing the narcosis comes much earlier and much worse, and I think that's what is happening here. With packing, you simply generate more CO2 on the descent, which has nowhere to go as your lungs collapse, and it ends up in your blood, and drastically amplifies the N2 narcosis, creating feelings of fear, doom, and anxiety.

I can dive about 25m deeper with packing vs. FRC (on max dives), but the dives are far more unpleasant.

I would add that with packing on max line dives, I start to notice the narcosis on dives around 57m. I also feel the narcosis on the descent as I pass 65m, like clockwork. I have never had any narcosis on FRC dives.

 

[Kars]

Very interesting thread, well done everyone.

My routine in calm water:
I like to lay on back, breath slowly and relax, do a few purge breaths, exhale, pre-equalise my mask, inhale, inhale (Dave's double breath technique) and then top it of with some packing. I don't pack to the max because the last ones disrupt my comfort and bloodflow due to pressure on the artery. By lifting my lanyard hand (left) over my right shoulder I roll over in very relaxed way followed by a relaxed duckdive with my mono. Laying on my back in preparation the rope is on my right side. I agree with Umberto and others that relaxation beforehand is key and much more important that having a few packs more.
than
In regards to depth, what really helps me is not wearing weights and a very thin suit. I don't do any 'warm up' dives and want my buffers to be unaffected before the deep dive. I do instead warm ups and stretching on the shore.

Furthermore good swimming technique, flexibility, rhythm and good equalisation and posture makes all the difference.
About the mouthfull technique, I do this between 35 and 40m, but as of lately I'm experimenting with doing some additional 'topping' after the mouthfull. Similar to the double inhale costing less energy than one big one, I figure that doing a double mouthfill saves energy too reducing stress.

I think I've read somewhere that William Truebridge was/is able to bring air from the lungs into his mouth all the way up to a 100m or so. - sort of like reverse packing?

My pb in the cool northern Swedish waters is 65m, done with only a few packs, 3mm suit, no weights in about ~ 2'20. Neutral at around 12-15m, swimming until ~25 30m. - With good feelings throughout the dive. What also really helps is not to look down at any time, closing your eyes, carefully dosing the equalisations and just wait and fall with confidence. When I feel I should be near the plate, with my head in the same relaxed position I peek a bit through my nearly closed eyes to see the last marked part of the flying by line, preventing crashing into the plate and lights

I did experience a heavy narcosis during apnea, doing a pb depth, with packing in dark cold 40m deep in a lake. It was a very slow dive and at the turn I noticed my thoughts going much slower than normal, so I recognised "ah this is narcosis!" and rationally refocused at the task at hand.
In general when you got the "oh shit!" feeling, just switch to your plan and focus at the task at hand. Focus on what you CAN do rather than spoiling your O2 on walking into the spiral of fear.

I think you'll need time and practice to reach the same level of comfort with (some) packing than you now do without packing an snorkel. Adjusting your setup, technique, flexibility to this different way. But maybe you can also go the other route and learn to better bring up more air at greater depths to your mouth? Ideally learn to combine both routes.

Great thread!

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[waxlips]

my tag for diving at depth is the song deep callin deep by margaret becker. if you get the chance listen to it because it is a great freediving themed spiritual song and beautiful too.

 

[waxlips]

by the way i love going deep because there is no immediate source of air and this gives me a good rush.