Apnea, Suicide and Depression

[shoutatthesky]

I am extremely annoyed that the thread "New Pipin-Mestre Book Released" has been closed, however I do understand the reasons - it was getting way off topic. The topic it strayed onto was the connection between apnea and suicide/ depression. I think this is an important topic that needs to be discussed and hence this thread.

My experience has been that pranayama, when combined with diving, can lead (in some cases) to bouts of extreme depression (even suicidal depression)....

Eric Charrier, the controversial french constant weight diver (who at one point held a dubious record of 73.5m), also hung himself, or so they say.
__________________
Eric Fattah

It seems that breathing exercises of whatever form can have profound effects on our psychological state. I know I mostly feel a deep sense of peace and relaxation after an apnea session. Please share with us your own experiences.

 

[joe123321]

Weird, I feel happy and relaxed after apnea. Strange stuff

 

[Spaniard]

I agree

 

[Erik]

Makes me happy, or better yet- neutral.

 

[fogish]

I am bi-polar, and I have even attempted suicide. One of the few things in life that brings me out/up is freediving. Coincidently it helps me calm down a lot, like Erik said it is a neutralizer for me. I feel joy being in the water, so I am at times slightly higher while diving.

I feel it is close to meditation and visualization that I have been doing for years. It normalizes me, I just wish I could be in the water right now.

 

[ggarrett]

I am bi-polar, and I have even attempted suicide. One of the few things in life that brings me out/up is freediving. Coincidently it helps me calm down a lot, like Erik said it is a neutralizer for me. I feel joy being in the water, so I am at times slightly higher while diving.

I feel it is close to meditation and visualization that I have been doing for years. It normalizes me, I just wish I could be in the water right now.

Thank you for your openness. You're not alone. I have had similar experiences.

Check out the following thread: http://forums.deeperblue.net/genera...pressions-hypoxemia.html?highlight=depression

and especially this reference:

PEP Web - Treatment of Depressions with Hypoxemia: Gurevitch, Sumyanskaya and Khachaturean. J. of Clinical Psychopathology, VI, 1945, pp. 523–535.

I discussed this with a doctor who felt this might have merit. Medical schools currently teach a pharmaceutical approach to most ailments. So, we may not find attention paid to this theory. I felt that it might also explain my attraction to the sport of apnea.

It also stands to reason that if apnea can elevate a person from depression to normalcy, then apnea might also elevate a person from normalcy to slight euphoria. However, euphoria is often coupled with a swing in the other direction. Good food for thought anyway.

Lastly, any population will have a certain percentage of suicides each year. In the USA, it's around 10.8 per 100,000, or 1 in 9000/year more of less. So, how many people have freedived and how many have killed themselves? I have heard of only two notables in the history of the sport. It might be freedivers are more stable. I have found them highly intelligent. More thought munchies...

Peace,
Glen

 

[wes]

Nice post Glen and great topic,

I looked into suicide statistics when discussing the safety of kiteboarding, where also unfortunately a handful of people die from each year. Glen's statistic of 1/9,000 is about right for US suicides though that is every year. Suicides are quite high for people 15 years thru 35 years. It peaks again around age 65 though this is different I feel as the root cause is not despression/giving up but rather terminal cancer diagnosis etc (we don't really have good words in english for different types of suicides). Anyway the point is 1/9,000 is for each year so your risk from age 15 thru 35 years old is 20 times that or 1/450. If you are a male its higher and if you are caucasion (white) its higher still and is about 1/100 for this period of your life. That's dangerous!!!! So the point with freediving and kietboarding is that if you enjoy it and it gives your life meaning (which both do for a great majority of the participants) maybe it safer to do these "risky" sports like freediving or kiteboarding then be afraid to do what you really want and not do them and get depressed and kill yourself.

On another aspect of freediving and depression I have experienced very pronounced and severe depression after coming home from a freediving trip. My wife and I went thru about 3 weeks of serious "re-entry" into the "real world" depression after our intermediate clinic with PFI last year. In two weeks we will go to Grand Cayman with PFI for 16 days so will surely be "severly depressed" on our return. We have even planned for that and planned several "treats" on our return to help in this regard. I hope I am not sounding bad to anyone with serious depression, I am not meaing to make a joke of feeling bad after a very nice trip as this seems less serious than serious depression.

Cheers Wes

 

[gaiadiver]

I hope this conversation continues on. I notice sometimes how every freediver I know has some kind of wierd thing about death and dying. This guy I'm seeing now here in Fiji said he thinks all of these people are "terminally oriented". I thought he was making racist fun of me at first. But there is some grane of truth in what he said.

 

[Seacidal]

I agree that this is a subject worth additional discussion. I believe that prolonged sessions of freediving, apnea, freedive spearfishing, etc. can create an altered state of consciousness that may persist for some time during and/or following the activity (inactivity?) In those who are predisposed to, or are already battling, depression, the return to "regular" consciousness and thoughts may aggravate or initiate feelings of depression.

As far as a link between apnea and suicide, it may well be that the "escape" afforded by the altered consciousness of apnea could serve to worsen feelings of despair when the practitioner returns to their regular state of being.

Speaking personally, freediving provides me with a wonderful break from the stresses and strain of life and work. Down there, I'm not reminded of what awaits me back on land. I cherish that escape, even knowing as I do that it can be final and fatal. Coming back from that enveloping liquid weightlessness and its attendant freedom is alway a challenge.

That's why I am,
Seacidal

 

[efattah]

My experience has led me to believe the following (this is just my OPINION...):

- The key ingredient is vagal stimulation, which occurs linearly with the breathing reflex
- Vagal stimulation has a profound effect on the nervous system; generally it stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system
- In most people and in most situations, I have been led to believe that apnea & vagal stimulation creates improvements in mood and also libido -- generally a very positive experience overall
- The problem seems to be when it is taken too far. Examples of taking vagal stimulation too far include: extreme pranayama with prolonged and excruciating slow exhale cycles; blocking of contractions via the blocked exhale method; extreme apnea exercise in the form of apnea stairmaster/apnea biking/apnea hiking

In cases of extreme vagal stimulation, there seems to be some chance that an exact reversal occurs -- decreased mood (depression) and loss of libido. If the vagal stimulation is continued, in some cases (including my own), suicidal depression can result. In my own case, I noticed that having an orgasm would cause a sudden decrease in these negative effects, but they would return again on their own (amplified by abstinence).

In my case, once I had taken it 'too far', I was totally screwed. ANY apnea, vagal stimulation or abstinence caused an instant downward spiral into depression. When diving, I could feel the depression coming on WHILE STILL IN THE WATER.

This effect basically prevented me from doing ANY type of training except for regular cardio or weights.

At one point, I was suffering from allergies. I took various antihistamines. Many antihistamines also have serotonin effects (anti-depressant). Then, when I stopped taking the antihistamines, the withdrawal effect (pro-depressant effect) amplified my apnea-depression and launched me into a suicidal state.

In my case, once I had taken the vagal stimulation too far, it took 2 years for it go away, and it went away instantaneously when I was recently in Thailand. I was diving every day, and each day I felt the depression worsen during and after the dives. Until the second last day, when instead of getting more depressed during the diving, I got un-depressed, and since then, I have been experiencing positive side-effects from diving, just like the old days.

The nervous system is very complicated. Advanced yoga textbooks speak at length about depression induced by breath control (which is one of the dangers they warn about).

During the height of my problem I spoke with a very advanced yogi who lives in Seattle. He had experienced the same problem years ago. He told me to spend hours and hours concentration on my heart plexus/chakra and focusing on loving emotions. When doing so, I would occasionally get a flood of euphoric relief from the depression, but it was a difficult practice and I rarely had the time & focus to do it. It was simpler to avoid holding my breath.

 

[shoutatthesky]

Thanks Eric, A very informative and honest post. Could you please expound on "vagal stimulation"?

 

[deep thinker]

About two years ago when I first joined our local diving club. I was feeling slightly over extended and at the beginning stages of slight depression due to stresses at work and at home, basically struggling to adjust to a world that was exppecting more and more of me. I was never a really big fan of static apnea and still arent so Ill exclude that from the equasion now just to make it clear that my experiences relate more closely to water based (ocean based ) breath holding.
I did my intro freediving coarse and every night after a class Id feel elevated and happy afterwards looking forward to the next time I could be there. Since then the effects would last longer and longer every time we went diving and every time I went out Id be staying in the water longer and just look around and hang there in the weightlesness of it all enjoying the feeling of just being there.
Since then I have improved greatly and have more focus and also more zest for life. So I do think that the practice of waterbased apnea reduces the negative effects life has on us by taking us to a different world where we are on our own and part of a bigger picture.
For me personally it mite not have been just the effects of the apnea though, something that mite increase this sense of being mite also be the visual stimulation from a balanced world where things work the way they do simply because it has been doing so for ages and apnea has given me the opportunity to be there and part of it for a short while on my own regard without the aid of any equipment to enhance my stay. So it could also be the sense of accomplishment where you realise you can do more on one breath than most of the people around you, being able to do something most of them are too scared to do for one reason or another or just arent interested in. A sense of personal worth, wellbeing and accomplishment perhaps enhanced by the endorphins and hormones released during a apnea session...
I :inlove the water

 

[jome]

Well, I think any "extreme" sport lures a bit of people with maybe some hidden suicidal tendencies. And I guess many consider freediving an extreme sport, even if I don't.

Of course there are such people in every group, but the propablity of finding one in a extreme sport scene might be a little higher?

It might be also that for people, who already have problems, freediving gives some relief and that is why they become hooked in the first place. Ie, freediving does not necessarily cause the problem, but people with problems are attracted to it. When it is taken away from them, the problem might surface again. I by no means claim to know anything about Jaqcues Mayol's personal life, but just as thought, maybe diving was the reason he kept going as long as he did, and not vice versa?

For me personally, diving has had only positive effects. Not necessarily in any physiological way, but simply I've gotten more confident, have a stronger and better perception of my self and in general my quality of life has improved - since before diving I didn't really have any passionate hobbies or in fact not much at all I truly cared about - which is really important (I now understand) in providing release from frustrations and to channel your creativity and passion to something. It might as well have been, I don't know, ikebana or something. As long as you have something you're passionate about (obsession is another thing and always dangerous). For me diving was a logical choice since I've always been attracted to water. Like some people are, I don't know why, but some people just love it.

I think glorifying death is part of the "mystification of freediving" movement, that I really dislike anyway. There is this image that a diver has to be some kind of genetic freak, suicidal and troubled in personal relations in order to qualify as a real diver. Personally I think that is just bs. Diving is fun, very safe, satisfying and there is also room in my life for other things. Such as work, family, loitering, good food, being an all around nerd...And keeping these things in balance it what really keeps me going.

Also, when discussing effects of apnea and drawing a link to Pipin, I would like to remind that the guy has suffered at least half a dozen serious DCS hits, and I guess most of them never even treated properly - at least according to his book.

It's a tough topic, but I bet I'm not the only one who has wondered about it. I really wish this topic stays on course, serious and tasteful, because it is also very important and interesting.

 

[amihov]

Hi this tread is very interesting. I have never went so far in to breath holding that i can feel bad when i am doing it . To be real i have way other things to feel bad for including immigration and accepting the new reality and the all full never ending rain in Vancouver. For me the diving is just release from all other things that make me feel bad. I believe that if you push any sport up to its limits you can start hating it. When i dive i always feel very good during the dive and after the dive as long as there is sun light. When i do apnea walks i feel the same way as long as the weather is good i can push my self to the point of black out and i like it. But when the rain starts i hate doing them. Maybe i am just a simple man for the most important is the sun if it is sunny i can go deeper and hold longer .

 

[steff]

I’m a newbie freediver, but I do have experience with other so called ‘extreme’ sports (rockclimbing, whitewater kayaking).

I guess I’m drawn to sports that are what I’d term ‘all encompassing’. I find that a lot of the good feelings I get from doing these things comes from the fact that you need to be focused upon the task to do it, and for those few precious moments, you can put the stresses of your life away from you, and focus on the task at hand (whether it’s nailing a line, sticking a dyno, or dealing with the urge to breathe).

The other reason I suppose, is that these sports often rely upon you challenging yourself. Usually there is some element of fear, or challenge. Completing the task at hand relies on you dealing with the element of fear, and overcoming it. There are obvious psychological and physiological benefits to doing something that scares you.

Have I ever been suicidal? I like to think not. However, there was a period last year, where I spent a lot of time pushing myself to do harder (and often more dangerous things). There was a lot going on in my life at the time. Was I suicidal? I don’t think so, but what I craved was that single-minded attention that allowed me to put the rubbish that was going on in my life to one side, and for a period of time, allow me to think that my life was good.

Would I ever kill myself diving/kayaking/climbing? No. I love the sports I play. If I ever choose to kill myself, it will be in a way that a) doesn’t threaten the accessibility of the sport (the more injuries/deaths in a sport, the more ammunition it gives our legislators to place boundaries upon it), b) leaves the outcome uncertain (risk of coma/brain damage as opposed to death) and c) leave my friends in the sport in a cycle of self-recrimination and doubt.

Make no mistake, if you ever deal with death in your sport, even if there’s nothing you could have done, you will always blame yourself.

If I ever choose to kill myself, I will do it in a way that my friends know that it’s what I meant to do.

Sorry if this doesn’t make a lot of sense. I’ve just been typing things as they’ve come into my head. Please take this post in the spirit in which I meant it, and maybe not quite as its come out. I respect everyone’s choices. This is just my opinion.

steff

 

[jome]

Steff, I think you have very nicely defined the difference between "extreme" sport and just challenging sport with risks. The difference is in the mind of the athlete.

Ie, if you're doing something potentially dangerous and challenging, to stretch your abilities and concentration. Putting your complete focus on making it right. Getting a thrill of the knowledge that even though it may look dangerous to outsiders, you are in complete control of the situation and know what you're doing...Then I would not call it extreme. Regardless of the depth, time, altitude, distance, temperature...

But if you do it to get a cheap thrill of a life threatening situation to laugh about later...Or just for personal glory or admiration of outsiders. Then we are in extreme land, even if it is just speeding on a highway or something. And then, we're also closer to the dark subject of this thread.

That is why I don't like the term.

Freediving, I believe attracts both types of people. Luckily, the latter are not so common, or learn very quickly

 

[Seal]

Super Stuff!

I thought I was going nuts! Well thing is I have not been diving for 6 months. And suffer from the great "why am I here, what am I doing with my life" topic.

I was living in Africa (Cape Verde) and used to dive alone in shallow and open water. And life was great and real. And now beeing at home in Europe everything is sooo easy and booring. I just don't know what to do. But reading this post make me realise I just miss the water and the reality of taking care of my self.

On the Death note: I have experienced 2 accunts, one where I blacked out in a pool after 5min, "drunk breathold" and one where I woke up after a exhale speardive beeing alone. My thoughts are dying ain't so bad, so I am pretty relaxed about it. And yes It does in my case make me more terminal, in thought and mind. I mean it IS going to happend, and if it happens around water having fun, I wouldn't mind.

 

[Jee]

Jome, I recalled a lyrics of Faithless, when I read your post. This is the Liontamer. I copy the part which I remembered:

"If you place a thing into the center of your life
That lacks the power to nourish
It will eventually poison everything that you are
And destroy you

As simple a thing as an idea
Or your perspective on yourself of the world
No one can be the source of your content,
It lies within, in the center.
/Only with mellow are you thin enough to slide through/
/Only with mellow are you thin enough to slide through/

Don't let nothing ride you. ..."

I think freediving is "nourish" for most of us, but anyway, I feel some true message in this song. The point is balance, I think. Do not let anything rule you, rule your life.

According the thread: I always have good feelings because of freediving, and I agree, that it is sometimes hard to come back from a freediving trip, and start doing tings you don't really like, or don't like that much. If you have more points in your life, that you like, love, than it is easier to handle the "I wish I dove now" feeling. I.e. children, your wife/husband (family), friends, ...

Jee

 

[vali]

there is nothing more relaxing for me than freediving.....i love it for the simple fact that he give me peace and for the fact that is so "not like the ussual stuff"....
i love life...i never wanted to do suicide and i think that i am a normal human...
i do not know if this is important, but i was at 45 m in scubadiving, and no sign of narcosis at all....

 

[fcallagy]

My other half has accused me of being attracted to extreme sports like diving and motorbikes. i do remember being a bit of a tearaway on the bikes but suicide was never an issue, it was a love of speed induced stress that meant you had to focus hard on what you were doing, i felt great having completed a certain stretch etc at high speed and not having binned it. On occasion i would stuff it up and find that the bike I was on was a much better machine than I was a rider and I therfore got away with. I believe I have since copped on as the ford transit i now drive dosn't like it over 60mph. I love freediving and also scuba as a way of visiting the other world and find it deepely relaxing. Others may find this relaxation on a golf course or shopping. I count myself extremly lucky in my life thus far and should thank the gods/god everyday but quite often i don't. Its only when i see the struggles of other people through out the world that i remember to do so. Someone close to me suffed severe depression and of course i waded in to "fix it". Thankfully I learnt something about it. Surely its a combination of factors from chemical balances in our bodies to trauma suffered in our lives and breath holding or extremes of anything may change these balances. Bottom line we don't really know how these things effect us for my two cents i have always found it to be positive the only time I ever felt in danger is when hanging for a short while on a line and feeling so relaxed and peaceful that I have to force/remind myself to ascend but I would not associate this with sucicdal thoughts in any way just not wanting this peacful feeling to end.