Apnea walking question & survey

[efattah]

I would like to hear from people who have done extensive apnea walk training.

I'm trying to figure out if apnea walking can actually create any type of improvement. When I say improvement I mean 'real' improvement, as in increased O2 storage or true energy changes. When I say improvement I do *not* mean that you are simply learning to resist the urge to breathe for longer.

Many people who do apnea walks DO improve, but what is really happening is they just are adapting to holding their breath. In other words their apnea walks teach them to push through the struggle for longer, getting closer and closer to a BO/samba.

I am interested in hearing from people who:
1) have done extensive apnea walk training
2) are able to perform an apnea walk to the point of a samba

If we consider 'WDTS' = walk distance to samba, meaning the length you must walk to reach a borderline samba, then I would like to hear your response to the following question:

1) Did your WDTS increase with time?
2) If so, how much did it increase (meters, minutes, or steps)?
3) How many sessions per week, how many walks per session, how many weeks of training?
4) What lung volume were you using (exhale, FRC, full inhale, mild packing, full packing?)
5) Were you doing any other training (diving, or cross training) ?
6) What was your starting WDTS (time, distance, steps)?
7) What was your 'finishing' WDTS or PB? (time, distance, steps)?

 

[jome]

October 23rd 2005 to November 12th 2005

Start from:
2:45/130m

"So I've now set a baseline. 2:45/130m. I was seconds away from samba, but it's a start. In fact I was surprised I could get such a good result on the first try."

PB was at 11-nov (at that time I was measuring time, not distance):
"3:20/143m (still really slow)

What can I say. It felt absolutely horrible, but no samba. I continued with the "low ventilation" approach, on the final walk taking 5 deep breaths before starting (which is clear hyperventilation, but much less than usual)"

PB in distance 31-Oct:
2:47/182m
"Again I'm surprised how good the first one went. Maybe packing is really not that good for dynamic? The difference seems negliable, I think tomorrow I'll try all of them without packing...

On the second one, I walked noticeably faster, which resulted in the longest distance so far. It seems my normal strategy is definately too slow!"


So in conclusion I'd say...Meh, not real progress in my mind. Sure there was improvement but I think within the boundaries of what's expected in just dropping other physical training in favor of apnea. I can't remember what happened, it seems I just stopped logging.

Too bad I didn't record the steps. The way I measured distance was that I kept walking a pre-measured distance of 13m back and forth.

So:
1) Yes, a little
2) In distance about 40 meters but it's hard to compare because I kept experimenting with pace etc - so wouldn't automatically expect "inceased o2 stores". In time 35 seconds, but again different pace as the baseline.
3) About 3 weeks, every other day or so
4) I usually did 3 walks per session. 1 without packing (full inhale) and 2 with packing to "max"
5) Yes dynamics and also gym workouts
6) 2:45/130m
7) 2:47/182m (timewise 3:20/143m)

Form personal exprience I did not find this kind of training very beneficial. It's great for a beginner for the reasons you mentioned (anything that helps you tolerate the breathing reflex basically works). I've been meaning to go back into "moving dry apnea" training, but I would do it differently (on exhale, trying to get the muscles fatigued and o2 deprived). I think Kimmo (who occasionally writes here) did a pretty extensive set of that, but don't know what the results were in the end.

Also I don't think 3 weeks is really enough to develop any serious changes. This was a preparing for a competition if I remember correctly, so it was the 3 weeks of "finalizing" and trying to peak.

 

[efattah]

Thanks Simo.

I've tried 5 walks per session (FRC), almost every day, for several weeks. There was a small jump initially, followed by a total plateau, no more improvement.

Years ago (2003) I did full exhale apnea walks, 40 walks per session, each full max. Over four sessions I improved dramatically (0'44"/80 steps, to 1'06"/120 steps).

I'm thinking of trying the 2003 protocol again.

 

[BennyB]

About 18 months ago before the Maribor Worlds I did a lot of Apnea walking, on my walk home from work along the Thames during summer. I was doing specific CO2/hypoxic tolerance training, FRC holds walking at a brisk rate for 20 paces with only 1 exhale and an inhale between sets, for approx 1.5 to 2 miles. I never took myself to the point of samba and I didn't have any noticeable increase in overall breath hold, just benefits from CO2 tolerance.

I think perhaps if i'd kept it up for more than a month I would have had some sort of benefit (more so from the hypoxic part rather than the CO2 tolerance - change in bloodwork etc), but of course this is anecdotal. I did perform a PB static during this time but it's hard to isolate one part of a training regime.


I think that any sort of max training (wet and dry) will provide better max results, it's very hard to simulate a max inhale scenario (ie. simulating the last part of a dive).


Cheers,
Ben

 

[Mafnet]

I know Im going to sound stupid but what exactly is the differance between a blackout and a somba

 

[Whopperhead]

Blackout is "turning the lights off"
Samba is being in a room while someone flickers on and off the lights - as if you were at a Rave. And your body does a sort of Samba Dance (loss of some control) Near Blackout.

 

[trux]

blackout = loss of consciousness
samba = loss of motor control

 

[picasso]

Hi Eric,

what do you mean when talking about 40 walks per session, each full max? All close to samba/LMC? 40 sounds tiring quantity :crutch.

Years ago (2003) I did full exhale apnea walks, 40 walks per session, each full max. Over four sessions I improved dramatically (0'44"/80 steps, to 1'06"/120 steps).

I'm thinking of trying the 2003 protocol again.

 

[ploum]

Disclaimer : I'm a beginner with less than one year of freediving experience.


I do that kind of training, usually once a week, but running, not walking (on a long straightforward path in the hood, an abandonned railway without the rails). This is a light pace, of course, but still running.

I first do hypercapnic training :

- breath holding for 50 steps then breathing for a given time, shorter after every run. (I usually finish with 3x50 steps with only 5 seconds of breathing in between).

On that specific exercice, I had great progress. Starting at 20 steps, going easily to 30 steps then 40, 45 and finally 50 (in 6 months of not really regular training).


Then, I do hypoxic to come back (after 5 minutes of static relaxation) :

- Breath holding for 50 steps, then 2 minutes breathing, then 60, etc.

At first, my peak was 90 (starting from 30) then I gradually increased very very slowly to 110 and 120 at nearly every session.

Progress are a lot slower but more regular. I first have a new peak. Then the week after, I cannot make it, then I make it again until it becomes "easy".

When I*top, I push in the limit and I can feel that my vision starts to "tunnel" and I'm feeling a bit dizzy when I start to breath again. I really feel that my legs are 100% lactics. The best part seems to be to continue running at the same pace when recovering.

When increasing progressively, my PB is 130steps. I start directly with a max performance, my PB is 180 steps.

Last week, I changed my protocol to replace steps by time. It allows me to be more relaxed and to not concentrate on step counting. In only one time session, I was able to to 55sec at the top of my pyramid, which is likely to be my PB (around 135 steps as I'm very very regular and do 50 steps/20 seconds).

 

[yakfisher]

Counting steps reduces my performance. I start at a set point and walk as far as I can. I time the walk. I then walk back and pace the steps.

 

[adelito]

any new light on this thread?

Eric,
In your opinión , what has been the most beneficial part of training?
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Kars]

Hi people,

Did some running apnea today, and I think I found something out about my (poor) Dynamic apnea performance.

As warm-up I jogged for about 5 minutes to my stretch area, where I took some 10 minute time to relax and stretch the main muscle groups.
Than walked slowly to the start and did a ~5 minute breath-up, breathing slow with some visualisation, and a nice airflow speed.
Exhale, inhale, inhale, 2 packs, push stopwatch and start.
I jogged looking down, seeing my feet and arms moving, repeatedly counting to 4. When it became a little hard (~100m) I changed pace into near sprint, tilting my head to see a bit more of what is coming, the breakpoint came just about 50m from the end of the path, and running I decided to go for it. At the end of the path I noticed it was pretty hard mentally, and did the recovery hook breaths, but I was not near samba yet. Neither were my legs destroyed with lactic acid, though there was some.

Total running time was just 1'12", but the distance was a HUGE pb, 260m.

My previous pb was like 200m, jogging the whole stretch.
This run makes me think of how I need to change my Dynamic apnea approach. Swimming the first aerobic part in a slow jogging pace, and just before the first contraction switch to (near)sprinting. This way I may be able to ensure that my muscles operate in an anaerobic way, not stealing much O2 from the bloodstream my brain needs

What do you people think?

Maybe I can test this next Tuesdays in a 25m pool.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[waxlips]

apnea walking is good for zombie roleplay because this is a popular pastime and fixation of society. lately the zombocalypse scenario has taken the entertainment industry by storm but would be better if the supposedly dead apnea walked. c'mon you movie producers out there the dead don't breathe. usually zombies are heard screaming and moaning instead of not breathing and it is ridiculous to hear coming from the dead. ghosts should not be breathing either.

 

[Kars]

We're more like chameleon Zombies though, we change colour, in my case from white to red to Gray

 

[sgnips]

i changed my job 6 moths ago: now i work at the 3rd floor and decided i won't be taking the lift anymore
after 2 months of "training" i can easily do 3 floors FRV running or the same full lungs very slow
the fun part is the lactic legs i get after 2 floor on FRV: i guessed it would help me getting rid of some bad sensations at the end of my DYNs

nothing to say about full lungs: 3 floors suck, i simply need more for a challenge

next step: put down a table of these weird things, but it would be difficult as i go upstairs, work for few hours, then come back down to meet suppliers, then up again... total 2 or 3 times in a day... no big training here

 

[sai]

I tried some apnea walking for the first time yesterday. Shortly after contractions start (which came in pretty hard, compared to usually soft contractions) my legs started to feel really "light" and my neck started to feel really uncomfortable. That change from "everything's fine" to "that doesn't feel good at all" happens in 2-3 seconds. Is this lactic acid building up?
I aborted the walks then, because I didn't know if these were already signs of hypoxia.
A short advice would be appreciated here. Thank you!

 

[Kars]

I think it's your dive-response kicking in.
Bloodshift + increase in bloodpressure.

Try walking slower, holding your HR <heart-rate> down: starting with a 10 second hold and then start walking, focusing on holding your HR down, one easy rhythm.

When you do something slow then you'll have more time to observe what's happening inside.

 

[shark109]

Hi everybody

I just want to know if some of you noticed improvement in their Dynamic PB thantks to these walking sessions?

Anf if it's the case what is the improvement according to you?

Bye

 

[MRU]

my PB FRC apnea walk is 116m

and with full lungs jogging it is 300m, time 2'45