Apnea zones

[Duge]

Hello guys,

I wanted to know what "zones" you get through when holding your breath, and how you pass them and what is the point that makes you breathe again. In static I am acurrently at 5:20sec, measured in our home pool.

I relax for 3-5min. I am practissing meditation for about 20 years, so I can go quite deep in a few seconds. Than I make 1 deep breath in-out, than again 1 breath in and out i push as much air out as possible and I make 3rd breath in, pack in a little and start.

My feeling is:

- discomfort at start by having full lungs (the air wants to go out), which tells me to get out and breath, I relax and it slowly goes daway
- in about like 3,5 mins I feel "the best", like if I am normally breathing, very comfortable. I get deep into relaxation state. It lasts like for 40 sec
- than it starts to grow in a discomfort, from very little ending in first contractions.
- I pass them by like in 20 sec by relaxing, and it gets away for some time,
- I get feeling in the hands like tickling or what, a little in legs, but can move with them nicely, and I can stand it
- than I get the contractions again ending up with breath hold (cant stand it, or I am affraid --> duno). Currently 5:20sec, but feeling quite nice reserve.
- after ending my breath hold, I breath like 2-3 times fast deeply (it goes alone), and few times in a relaxed way. My wife (freediving as well, my son too) talks to me just like after I get my head out of the water, so I can check my function propperly. I never get any blackout or samba, so might be i dont try hard enough :girlie
- after I feel very relaxed, and I can continue quite fast, but in a more relaxed way than before, I feel kind of joy, soft happiness, cant describe it propperly :head

So, any ideas how to improve? I am actually an office rat, having not so much sport, a little fat, so I think it all comes mostly from my meditation technique. I am trainging static like for one week now, from this site: Apnea mania I am looking forward to start with this as well: Apnea mania

Thanks guys, and I will appreciate if you share your feelings during apnea, and how you pass the different states and so on.

 

[J Campbell]

"cant stand it, or I am affraid --> duno"

Actually, to really know how long you can hold your breath you must hold to passing out. But I don't recommend that. 5:20 is a very decent hold time, most can't do that. If you want to see how far you can go past that, look for tunnel vision, seeing flashes or spots in your vision, ringing in your ears, sounds/echos like you are in a tunnel, or other distorted senses. Or your bowels may start to cramp or gurgle. If you get to that point you are very close to your max. DON'T DO THIS IN THE WATER! BED ONLY!

 

[Duge]

Hello Mark, Thank you for your answer.

I am carefull, when underwater I allways keep nice reserve, never go even near the border.

During my training in bed, I have my wife or my son near, and they assist with talking to me immediately after I end up breath hold, so I can check my functions. I never get flashes, lights, ear ringing or echoes, and after few seconds, like 10-15 sec I am able to stand up, and walk without any problems. After about 3 deep breaths, which my body makes by itself after breath hold, I am communicating and moving with my legs and hands nicely, no change against normal state.

The only difference is change in my voice, which sounds funny. The air comming out from my lungs cant be controlled so well somehow, so I sound like an ass for some time lol

Thats why I wanted to know the phases the freedivers go through, like early contractions, than that, than after it comes to that and so on, so I can compare my states and might be push myself further, or just improve. :duh

In the beginning, I believed that when contractions come I MUST breathe in, because......but after I learned that it is not necessary and I can go on without harm, it opened a new area for me.

I dont think 5:20 is much for me. I can still feel quite nice reserve there and it has to do with my ofice rat attitude (not much sport), and still I feel I can get more relaxed than I am now.

 

[J Campbell]

Yeah, after a series of breath holds, my voice is deeper and bit hoarse for awhile. I'm thinking its because my throat is clamped shut during the holds and puts pressure on my vocal cords.

Your profile says you are new here. Have you been in the water yet? Spearo?

 

[Duge]

It migh be the pressure on ther vocal chord, true.

Yep, I am new here. I am in the water almost from my childhood, freediving with my father, in local lakes and rivers and than in the sea with my family. So I am recreational freediver, enjoying the water and life in there. I am heading in about a week to Abu Dahab with my family, so we will freedive and snorkel quite a lot, like 11 days. :thankyou

 

[J Campbell]

Cool Duge! I'll but the water in Abu Dahab is beautiful! I'm jealous!

 

[Duge]

Yes, I am really looking forward. We are going to Egypt for I think 3rd time, and it is always completely amazing experience. Hope all will be well, and we will have a chance to swim with dolphins, sharks, dugong and green turtle....

 

[deepRelax]

...
ending up with breath hold (cant stand it, or I am affraid --> duno) ...

Hi Duge,
If you want to look for your limit, try to add 5 - 10 s to your PB, not more.
Do it with small increments in order to stay safe => if you didn't have a samba at 5:20 (and feel you have something left), you won't black out at 5:30 if you are in the exact same conditions. But still be really careful and continue to listen to your body and have safety, just in case.
I don't have reliable training buddies so that's the way I do it.
Wishing you great apnea meditation.

 

[Mullins]

if you didn't have a samba at 5:20 (and feel you have something left), you won't black out at 5:30 if you are in the exact same conditions.

You could easily black out, regardless of whether conditions are the same or not. If you're talking about in-water training that's some of the worst advice I've ever heard...

 

[Azrael3000]

Just adding to what Mullins said, I once did a 50 m DNF swim which normally is no big deal for me and I was very close to the edge in the end. Parameters vary and there is no way you can have control over all of them. The only way to progress safely is by having a competent buddy on your side and then do one step after the other.

 

[Kars]

I second your static phases, only with me my contractions usually start at 2'- 2'30.

I recommend less hyperventilation before starting, just 1 slow complete exhale, 1 slow inhale -relax - and then another inhale on top. (without exhaling in between).

Learn and practice with your buddies safety first, so you and they feel confident.
Also do not seek a BO, just explore the contraction phase a bit more. You may have double contractions, and or subsiding ones (can be a sign you're close to samba).
Learn how to hookbreath and keeping the blood pressure up when surfacing. The deep ventilation allows one blood pressure to drop, that may reduce the blood flow to the brain just a bit too much when close to samba.

Take a freediving course in Egypt and explore your current limits there?

Make sure your training load is not too much, rest and eat well.


Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[deepRelax]

You could easily black out, regardless of whether conditions are the same or not. If you're talking about in-water training that's some of the worst advice I've ever heard...

Thank you Mullins for rectifying my comment, appreciate. Can you tell us why he could easily black out ?

 

[Duge]

Hello guys,

thanks for all the comments, I appreciate it very much. I am currently in Egypt, and unfortunately I wasnt able to take my weights (were over the weight limit), and so I need to spend a little more to get down, but - it is absolutely amazing here

@ Mullins: my 5:20 are static only, so in the water I care that I dont even get close to the limit, when diving just with my family (son and wife, just starting with freedive), still keeping nice reserve, and enjoying the reefs, all the fishes and turtles (no dugong yet outch!), not deeper than 25m. My dives vary from 1.5-2 min only, so I dont get any issue, and when getting up I still feel I could go on much more, nicely relaxed.

@Kars: thanks! Do you get like 1, or 2 or more contraction phases? What in between? And how do you pass them - feelings on fingers, or whatever else....?
When I am diving in the water, I am usually quite fast very relaxed, body more less sleeping, so I dont make any hyperventilation. The breath is very slow, so I just make that 3 slow breath deeper, no packing now and dive. I use BTV, but sometimes fails and than I use Frenzel...working on it.

 

[Mullins]

2:00 is a very big - and dangerous - dive for somebody with a 5:20 static. You're likely a lot closer to your limit than you think.

Deeprelax, even if you control everything - diet, rest, preparation, breathing, technique - performance changes day to day. Changes in endocrine system, gradual decline of apnea ability, sympathetic nervous system, whatever. I've seen plenty of people black out on what they would normally consider easy dives, for no apparent reason. One of these was a fatality.

 

[Kars]

About contraction phases. Many people experience 2 types, early small and soft ones, and the hard ones in the end. Others may have double ones in the end. Also I've had 1 dive with almost no contractions (I don't know why!). On some maximum dives I get the impression that contractions become a little easier at the end, but for me this also signals that I'm close to samba. How to get to those limits? It's just a matter of safe training, inching one's way forward, getting more comfortable with less comfort CO2 schedules, no preparation O2 maximum dives.

Safety, I strongly suggest that you and your wife follow a freedive course and practice practical safety, you can incorporate mouth to mouth if you will
One of the dangers in deep diving is that at depth the partial oxygen pressure is much higher, so you feel great with plenty of O2. On the way up this needs to be 'payed back', and so the feelings and warnings at depth do not reflect the surface reality. Shallow Water Black Out is the name of the result.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[deepRelax]

2:00 is a very big - and dangerous - dive for somebody with a 5:20 static. You're likely a lot closer to your limit than you think.

Deeprelax, even if you control everything - diet, rest, preparation, breathing, technique - performance changes day to day. Changes in endocrine system, gradual decline of apnea ability, sympathetic nervous system, whatever. I've seen plenty of people black out on what they would normally consider easy dives, for no apparent reason. One of these was a fatality.

Thank you Mullins for your response.
Indeed, we should never forget how complex the human body is and how subtile changes can occur. Proper security is a must.
Furthermore, talking about subtile changes, apnea can sometimes lead to a stroke (cerebrovascular accident). This is known of sleep apnea of course but it can happen to freedivers too. This is probably what happened to Patrick Musimu.

 

[Duge]

2:00 is a very big - and dangerous - dive for somebody with a 5:20 static. You're likely a lot closer to your limit than you think.

Deeprelax, even if you control everything - diet, rest, preparation, breathing, technique - performance changes day to day. Changes in endocrine system, gradual decline of apnea ability, sympathetic nervous system, whatever. I've seen plenty of people black out on what they would normally consider easy dives, for no apparent reason. One of these was a fatality.

Thanks for comment Mullins. Anything closse to 2 min are not my regular dives, it was more less just a border - it was like 2 or 3 dives close to that. Normally it is less of what I do here. I take care to be more carefull. It might be that I am little more optimistic and resistant towards "bad feelings", which makes me feel I am ok, and might be it is different. Safety first. :crutch

 

[Duge]

About contraction phases. Many people experience 2 types, early small and soft ones, and the hard ones in the end. Others may have double ones in the end. Also I've had 1 dive with almost no contractions (I don't know why!). On some maximum dives I get the impression that contractions become a little easier at the end, but for me this also signals that I'm close to samba. How to get to those limits? It's just a matter of safe training, inching one's way forward, getting more comfortable with less comfort CO2 schedules, no preparation O2 maximum dives.

Safety, I strongly suggest that you and your wife follow a freedive course and practice practical safety, you can incorporate mouth to mouth if you will
One of the dangers in deep diving is that at depth the partial oxygen pressure is much higher, so you feel great with plenty of O2. On the way up this needs to be 'payed back', and so the feelings and warnings at depth do not reflect the surface reality. Shallow Water Black Out is the name of the result.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

Very good to know! I never experienced samba or blackout, so I dont know the warning signals yet. I am always thinking that diving should be enjoyment and relaxation, not some dangerous exploration of ones limits without propper backup and training. Better not to catch the best picture, but get home safe

With mouth to mouth you convinced me :chatup

How old one have to be to follow the freedive course? My son is 15.

 

[J Campbell]

@KARS - What is a "no preparation O2 maximum dive" ?

Thanks

 

[Kars]

@KARS - What is a "no preparation O2 maximum dive" ?

Thanks

Well it's like it sounds. For me it meant my coach interrupting my getting ready at the pool side, putting on my suit, saying "2 minutes to Official top!", try that a few times, and you'll learn to quickly focus and despite the very early struggle get very close to a pb.

However beginners usually need time and preparation apneas to feel ready for a long dive. The 'no warm-up' dives imply no breath-holds prior to a maximum breath-hold. However I'm not happy with the "no warm-up" term because stretching, resting and breathing are all part of a warm-up. Perhaps "apnealess warm-up" is a better word for such breath-hold preparations.

Duge, congratulations it's always a welcome surprise to hear what arguments helped people over the edge - I'm sure many instructors would not mind your son participating along with you, though you may need to sign a release. I think it's a responsible thing to teach the young the pleasure and lifesaving techniques of freediving.

On Safety, I think it's safer to dive knowing one's limits and accompanying signs, provided other safety measures are not neglected. Herein lies a big pitfall. Even people with 8 minute breath-holds cannot do without a buddy doing even modest dives. In freediving competitions people are ok, diving solo we see fatalities.