• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

Are you a certified safety freediver?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Hey Sebastian,

Nice start on the proposal.

I'm not sure that the first and second requirements of your safety levels is appropriate.

I know several safety freedivers here in Vancouver that I would consider experts because of their experience working at regional, national and the 2004 AIDA worlds competitions and would trust them for any deep dive, but who would not be able to do a hang at 40m for 20 seconds or do a 45m dive.

Also, I don't think that doing hangs at 40m is very safe for someone who hasn't had lots of experience. I guess I look at this from the perspective of recruiting new safety freedivers rather than anointing veterans. Also, we need to be careful of DCS in repeated safety dives and develop appropriate protocols for that.

I would put far more emphasis on the handling by safety freedivers of freedivers in BO, LMC, barotrauma, lung squeeze, etc... Protecting airways, knowing the emergency evac protocols, safety freediver coverage and roles, emergency plans, clearly assigned roles for backup safety freedivers and other personnel, stages of the rescue, safety freediver safety (who is spotting and watching the safety freediver after a deep rescue to make sure that he or she is okay), and especially, communicating to surface personnel what has occurred beneath the surface.

I have been thinking of adapting the approach of the Canadian Lifeguarding Standards to safety freediver training. The approach is primarily preventative, which, for example, differs vastly from US lifeguarding philosophy in many regions. The US approach apparently is reactive and focuses on the rescue and resuscitative efforts, not prevention.

I would prefer to see a similar preventative approach here. What kind of training will help safety freedivers prevent competitive freedivers from experiencing a BO or LMC? (discussion might include the expansion of the safety freediver's role) What responsibilities does a safety freediver have for his or her own safety when in a competition situation? Can a safety freediver refuse to go down? Many interesting things to discuss here.

I'd be interested in contributing to your proposal, Sebastian, and I'm sure there are others with ample experience who would, too.

Pete
 
laminar said:
Hey Sebastian, Nice start on the proposal. I'm not sure that the first and second requirements of your safety levels is appropriate. Also, I don't think that doing hangs at 40m is very safe for someone who hasn't had lots of experience. Pete
Click to expand...
This idea needs alot of input.
Yes, level three NEEDS alot of experience. When the 5 best freedivers at Hurgahada WC was going to dive - the "normal" safetydivers had to step aside and in came the veterans - the old champions - the national record holders - the experienced ones. If you are to do a 80+ dive you want the strongest - almost your peers to safety you. We might only find a doussin or two of the level 3 safetydivers in the world. A title worth to strive for

laminar said:
I would put far more emphasis on the handling by safety freedivers of freedivers in BO, LMC, barotrauma, lung squeeze, etc... Pete
Click to expand...
All this is done at the surface. This is the organizers job, the surface coordinator. What you are asking for is an expanded safetydiver role. I would call that the surface supervisor.
Priority one is to get the BO´s to the surface - thats what the safety freedivers do. But as you say - the day we see a death in a competition it will probably be a silly small misstake like a safety freediver getting BO after a deep rescue and all attention is elsewhere. In my opinion these things can hardly be taught at a course - it is developed after years of experience of different scenarios (and the ability to imagine scenarios that havent happened before).

The reason for writing this proposal is because I am looking for strong safety divers for Nordic Deep. We will have people diving to 80+ in dark cold waters, maybe in choppy seas. As the main responsible I am getting nervous (which is good). Last year I had to pick someone from 22 meters - the safetydiver in me felt like hero - the organizer in me was slightly schocked.

In order to find good safetydivers I believe the "reputation/status" of the safetydiver has to be improved. I want them to feel important and proud of their roles.

Sebastian

PS. I also feel we need to keep a discusion going about the medical personel at a comp.
Freedive safety and medics
 
I really like the idea! safety freediver should earn much more respect indeed. I'll give my full reaction later, but bravo for the idea.

On another note, aren't we getting more and more dependent on these safety freedivers? And shouldn't we search for other safety solutions as well? I've once been to a competition where the freediver dived down, and when the freediver turned at the bottom and the safetydiver dived down he couldn't equalize, and this was a veteran, next competitor in line thought safety was more important and dived down to wait for the freediver, bravi! We're still humans and there can always be some problems, and the deeper we get and the longer there is no accident in constant weight, the more likely it is that it will happen, maybe sooner then we think and like. Are we ready?
 
I was writing a Safety Freediver Course for AIDA when I was Education Officer - not sure if they are still working on it or not but it was definitely on the to-do list


"The Angels of the Deep", our scuba team are all run through a home made training course which we have considered passing through PADI as a Distinctive Specialty but haven't got around to doing yet

S
 
If yu are looking at a certifaction system for safety freedivers it should only last for a certain period of time. If I am a level 2 safety diver now and attend a comp as a safety in 6 months but I haven't dived since I should be a level one or whatever. I know the onus is on the safety diver to own up to this fact but I wonder is it possible to build in something to ensure that diver is still up to a specific depth like a regular refresher course or a pre comp shakedown for the safety divers. I am guessing most safety divers are also competeing so this may not be an issue but maybe something to bear in mind still.
 
fcallagy said:
refresher course
Click to expand...
Is not "refresher courses" something PADI invented to earn more money? If you are not fresh just go to the sea and get fresh, and afterwards look through the manual again.

Sebastian
 
I ask the question so that you as an organiser have a back up how do you know what the safety can do or how long since they did it? or do you find out when thay can get to that depth? As opposed to going PADI style refresher style a pre comp shakedown for all saftey divers might be a better option.
 
In my lifeguard training, refresher courses and practices are constant.

For example, once you get certified as a pool or waterfront lifeguard, you must:
-re-certify in CPR every year
-take a guard recert test every two years

You are also encouraged to:
-participate in guarding competitions (this makes your procedures second nature)
-go to inservices on a regular basis
-volunteer for special events
-practice with other guards

I think it is a very effective strategy to keep safety freediver training current with as many refreshers as possible. Safety freediving is different from lifeguarding - it is so far not a paid position (perhaps it should be, that way you'd attract excellent divers - but I think it would help to be modeled after it.

Peter
 
At SaltFree we only use safety divers for the comp who are people we know and see regularly doing safety efficiently - we won't use anyone we don't know for safety. That seems to be the best way as even the deepest divers can still be rubbish safety divers.
 
Still makes me wonder though if safety divers should be sent down to 20m before the comp starts to make sure their ears etc. are all ok on the day. You often hear stories of safety guys who are competent but just have problems on the day.
 
Are we not discussing very small details.

Common sense:
- A person with unknown capabilities are not to be used for safety diving.
- Don't rely on just one safety freediver during a dive, always have back up.
- People who apply for safetydiving do freedive regulary, I think we can assume that.
- Its easy to quickly asses the basic knowledge of an unknown freediver (look at him perform, ask around about him)

An idea like this can be brought to full stop by:
- Making it a moneymaking thing
- Discussing details in committies for ever trying to get it 100% right on the sketching table.

Why not start with the basics, launch it and learn from experience and let it grow.

Sebastian
 
They would do Ben - anyone Safety Diving (as anyone instructing) would warm up and check their ears first
 

I don't think our discussion here is bringing things to a full stop. Nor do I think contemplating the idea of giving safety freedivers compensation for their professionalism to be a taboo concept, whether it is money or some other form of compensation such as recognition, appreciation or something else that shows respect for the time and self-awareness they'll need to perform their responsibilities safely and effectively.

The point is, like Sam points out, is that although these things are common sense, how often at competitions do we see safeties that appear to be in way over their head, or that the demands on them by the organizer are not reasonable and unsafe? It does happen. I think it would be very good to provide safety divers with minimum standards for their own use so they can judge whether they are safe while providing safety. This is similar to how lifeguards operate. Safety divers need to operate as a team and know that they have each other's backup on each dive. Obviously, this needs to be practiced and debugged over time.

We are not a committee, Sebastian. We're just trying to explore this topic further, that's all.

Where is your frustration coming from (unless I've read your post wrong)?

Peter
 
laminar said:
Where is your frustration coming from (unless I've read your post wrong)?Peter
Click to expand...
Right you are. I am "jumping the gun" (is that the expression?). I see a possible problem in the future. We actually need a hundred safety divers right now. And we already have them, there are already that amount of qualified safetydivers available out there. Its just about setting a common basic standard and certifying them.

My worries are that the ones working on this within aida (because they are doing that now) will present something too detailed and complicated and that it will be set in a system where it involves a lot of money to certify yourself as a safetydiver. This might deter the competent ones and attract the ones that likes certificates.

My proposal to Aida would be to:
1) Set minimum standards.
2) Let the nationals take these standards and appoint the best safetydivers in their country to "spread" the knowledge at minimal cost.
3) Evaluate the system in a year and correct and develop.

Sebastian
 
While we are at it - I just must get this of my chest. Now I have seen it one too many times:

Rescue-breath is the wrong way to revive a black-out victim at surface. It can actually prolong the time of Black out.

Blow tap talk with increasing intensity is the right way the first 20-30 seconds (maybe more).

One must understand the mind of a blacked out freediver.
The black out comes from lack of oxygen in the brain.
But the reason why a BO victim does not breath at the surface is not only due to lack of oxygen in the brain.

The reflex to stay alive includes holding ones breath at surface, since the BO victim does not know that there is air available.

The safetydiver must "talk" to the subconcious of the BO victim (they can still hear and feel). It is about contacting the subconcious with the message that "you are safe".

This is done by touching, holding and specially tapping the cheek and talking to the victim, saing their name.

But the most important thing is the blowing in the face, this is many times better than a rescuebreath. Air on the face causes a reaction to breath.Not once, but over and over - BLOW.

While a rescue breath might even feel like an "attack". It is scientificly proven that one can not get a laryngospasm to go away by breathing against the epiglottis.

The rescue breath is a anti-rescue breath. If done at a later state - it should be done on a plattform. If water gets down the throat that migth seal a laryngospasm even more.

Some might say: I have revived many freedivers with rescuebreath. Yes that is because rescue breath is better than nothing. If you fidle around with a BO victim long enough they will either realize they are at the surface or the laryngospasm will release itself due to lack of oxygen in the muscle. BTT will be faster. The blowing is also used with "sudden infant death" scenariios where babies stop breathing. A blow in their face and the breathing reaction starts.

Stop this rescue-breath nonsense. Or give me arguments why its better than initial and throrugh BTT.

Sebastian
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…