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Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
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Hey guys it nice to chat with you agin.


I saved my scholarship and got some help from parents so i bought new computer for 1.75 k dollars and spent the rest of the money for new gear. New diving sesion new computer new gears everthing is new. I fell so good. Anyway........


I bought OMER Atoll float and New gara 3000 fins. Those fins are my first long blade fins. After 1-2 hours of surface swimming it caused serious pain in my ankle. I dunno if it because of the fins itself ( I didn't heard they are bad for surface swimming) or its because of my technique ( i am using bycle technique at least i am trying :D ) Anyone has an advice????

Second issue; I sold my speargun and waiting for new arrival of OMER products. I am plannig to buy Alluminium 90 with 18mm power bands and 6.3 mm shaft. The problem is its price! ! ! its more than 250 euro ( 300 US dollars). I dunno if any euro gun deserve that money. Especially the fishes are tiny here and bigger than 90 cm gun is use less. Should i wait to one more month and collect more money to buy it or i should buy less expensive Excalibur Carbon?. But i read in new OMER site thin carbon wall may not be survive with powerfull 18mm bands. What you guys think about that.
 

Adrian

Deeper Blue Beachcomber
Supporter
Nov 23, 2002
2,691
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fin technique

Murat,
I have the Gara 3000, and there is a thread on the fins in the Freediving Technique forum called "Gara 3000" I'm pasting something that Gitano wrote which might be useful:

--------------------------------

learn the technique of longer surface strokes countering one fin stoke with the other. ie dont over power your down stoke and wimp out on the up stroke that is sure to lift your body out of the water.
the cressi is a perfect fin for learning controlled finning LF, HF, 2000, or 3000. technique is key for perfect foward movement. if you kick too forcefully on your down stroke you will fatigue one groupe of muscles and throw your body out of alignment up, down, horizontal... think of a diagonal band on a speargun and the additional fiction in the guides that it causes, then think of your over trained downstroking legs adding friction all along your back side loosing energy. minimize all wasted energy with laminar thinking!

---------------------------------

About the ankle fatigue, it sounds like you just need more practice with them. Hope this helps.

Adrian
 
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rigdvr

Not Available in Stores
May 28, 2002
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Murat, if the fish are small and you would need a 90 at max, why go with the 18 bands? Get something smoother and lighter and you will shoot better anyway.
 

fuzz

Hawaiian transplant...
Sep 9, 2002
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Agreed!

A 16 band & thin shaft is definitely the way to go for smaller fish! You have to factor in the added recoil of using thicker bands and how much they'd affect your shot. Using 18mm bands witha 6.75 or 7mm shaft makes sense for bigger fish, but for the small stuff - I really prefer the smoothness of a 16/6.5 or even a 1/4" shaft
 

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Hey Murat,

Congrats on the new gear and PC.

About the gun - I am not that sure you should go for the latest O.ME.R release. I didn't see anything really new in their 2003 models, besides the muzzle. And I've seen and touched that new muzzle - the composition of the materials is the sam. It is still a bit too soft. So mi point is that you can go for any older 2002 model for less money. My advice - get the Excalibur Carbon. That's what most of the Mediterranean competitors used last year and I've discussed the model with them personally.

About the length. The size of the fish is not of such importance for the Mediterranean. It's the type of the fish and the good visibility you guys have in Cyprus. I am sure you're after fish between 0.4 and 2 kilos. You need three guns:

- 75cm - No sense of being a carbon one. This one you chose for holes and cracks under rocks. And also for ambush when the vis is really low. Use it for brown meagre, seabreams, congers or those bigger wrasses you have. Bands - 1 shorter set of 16mm. Shaft 5.5 or even thicker - 6mm, cause you inevitably gonna hit some rocks. 18mm bands for the thicker shaft. Just use the first slit of the shaft when you're going for the holes. Use the second slit if you see an average sized grouper... Don't shoot large groupers with this gun. It is better to let it live than to wound it bad so it will die in the cave an lose your shaft. If you don't expect fish of over 1 kilo, use trident or 5-dent. I personally never did though.

- 90cm - Carbon or not. This one you must have, because it's a versatile gun. You'd use it always when you're not sure about the vis and what type of fish you gonna hunt on. Can be used even in small holes if you master the technique of pressing the trigger with your thumb. That's the only gun you gonna use in the tide when you need to turn the weapon faster. Bands - use 1 shorter set of 18 mm bands. Shaft 5.5mm for the 18mm bands. You can use a reel if you're going to use it for the larger species.

-100cm - Carbon (cause it's lighter). This is your primary gun for opened spaces. For ambush and search hunt. Bands - 20mm Imersion Megabooster. Shaft - 6 mm. With this gun you're after seabass, dentex, mullets, bluefish, bonitos, blufin tunas, shi drum and of course the queen of them all - the groupers. Get a reel on this one!

My advice is to pick the model by testing how the handle fits your grip. One of the reasons I prefer the excalibur is the design of the handle.

Something more about the bands - always use Imersion! The thicker Beuchat and O.ME.R bands are thinned on the tips and they tend to pop out from the inserts of the wishbones. I have several big scars on my hands to prove it.

I ma sure this is the way to go. It has been tested for 2 generations already. :)

Hapy hunting!

Ivan
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
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hi

Ivan that was some cool info about hunting in the Med, I love finding out anything I can about hunting over there and Murat dont worry big fish arnt always that much fun I mean trying something different for a change is good. One of my lifetime goals is to go hunting in the Med with the incredibly deep Euro hunters.

One thing though not sure how a 6mm shaft will hold up against a grouper, Ive had 7mm shafts bent on fish of 26lbs and less these fish are similar to the grouper species.

cheers

ps More info about the med Please
 

Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
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Thank you guys for your replies.

Ivan,

You are right change is good.Thats why i want big fishes:D

Fuzz and Rig,

Yea i know i said the fishes are small but forgot to tell that they are too fast and sometimes they dont let you to stalk them..:D First i think to buy 16mm and 6.3mm shaft as you mentioned because i think if the accuracy is bad with 18, it does not matter how fast is shaft and how much range it has if you can't hit the target. But after that i send e-mail to the Mark Labocetta and ask about the accuracy of both 16 and 18mm bands. He said you get the same accuracy with both. I am surprised, i thought that, if the 18mm bands are more powerfull then they had more recoil but i trust him anyway.When i am searching in the new OMER site i saw they start to deliver Alluminiums with 18mm bands, then i say yes 18 must be ok then.

Wishbone,

One of our local spero said that 2002 excalibur carbon had one problem. You know that small part in the middle of the barell like small sized shaft guide (actually its more close to rear part) it support the shaft. Its good but he said every time you shoot, the wishbone hit the corners of that part and after several times it cause some serious damage on the part.In new models i saw they moved that part to more close to rear. I dunno if this solved the problem but at least it shows their is a really problem that technicians know about it.

For the gu issue;

I almost agree with you. First of all i never heard about 5.5 mm shaft. I think 6mm is even very thin for the gun 90 and longer because you cant get the real potential of the gun. But 6.5 mm is bit slow for that fast moving fishes (I generally hunt the fishes less than 1 kilo Breams-seabass-Rabbitfish-parrot fish) but soon i will start to dive with more experianced speros and hope to find better places. I expect to hunt some bigger Jacks and Groupers...

As you said 75 not worth the money to buy carbon i even not sure if 90 worth it. But 75 cm gun 6mm sahft and shortened 16mm are perfect.

For 90, Alluminium is too expensive i will wait until the new party of order come and see the difference between Alluminim and new excalibur series. Then i can decide if its worth to spent 100 euro more for Alluminium. But the thing is i read that 1.5mm carbon wall may not be ressist 18mm power bands. Do you know something about it.

Band length, I looked at the size table of 18mm bands for 90 cm gun in new OMER site but i see three different size 21-22 and 23 cm. .:confused: Mark advice me the 22 cm anyway.

If i ever want to buy gun longer than 100 for big fishes i don't mind to buy these :girlie guns ( You know they always have some problems:D ) I have three option Wong hybrid, Riffe No Ka Oi, or Totemsub Tahiti. The choice is depend on the price and shipping fees.

Happy Hunting to you all.....
 

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Thanks Ivan,

I used to do my hunting in the Black Sea and not the Med., but the species here are almost the same with the only exception that in the Med they come in larger numbers and, of course, bigger in size! And the vis is much better.

But the techniques are the same...

You can check out my web site if you want to know more about the Black Sea and the species. The URL is in my details.

About the grouper and the 6 mm shaft. You re absolutely right, mate! If you're after a 18kg "mero", the 6mm shaft won't be enough. However, groupers of such size are quite rare. The average species are 2-6 kilos (right Murat?). So when you go hunting you go for what you can usually catch.

If you are on a competition with a diveboard or a boat, you usually have also a pneumatic gun. If you meet such monster you go for a brain shot with the 100cm gun or try to shoot the fish in a way that the shaft will prevent it from entering deeper in the hole. Cause they use their gill plates to get stuck in their holes and then you have a problem...
If you can grab it there, do so end kill it with the knife. If you can't, then you go up to the dive board/boat for the pneumatic. Usually the 6mm shaft does get bent in the process, but a 18 kilos fish equals more than 18,000 points or 18 dinners, so it's worth it. You can replace the shaft if you have spare one, or get the 90cm gun and continue your hunt with it.

IB
 

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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62
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Murat,

I am not really sure why you haven’t heard about the 5.5mm shafts. Maybe your diveshop doesn’t sell them. Anyway, they are quite popular here for the size of the fish.

6mm shafts – this is a standard thickness for 90 and 100 cm guns. Thicker shaft you can use only with shorter 18mm bands or 20mm ones. The stock 16mm bands the gun comes with are useless – both my 90 and 100 guns came with such rubbers and even though I knew it, I still tried one of them with the original bands. The only word applicable for describing the shots is “spitting”. Marc is right – 18 mm bands at least. Your accuracy won’t be affected. The accuracy of my Excalibur Carbon 100 was not affected by the 20mm Megaboosters. It shoots like a cannon, but you don’t even feel it. And it is VERY accurate. And what’s more – the trajectory of the shaft is straight for the whole length of the line. With the 16 mm original bands and the 18 mm Beuchat ones I’ve tried the shaft started to fall before reaching the end of the line. The shaft can’t be “too slow” is you’re using the right bands.

The Excalibur – the thing in the middle is really the shaft guide. Never had any problems with the shaft guide, but I am using also the longer wishbones. The shorter ones were getting too open due to the band thickness. One way or another – the guide is the cheapest spare part. You can even get a second one closer to the muzzle for more accuracy.

$300 – way too damn much. Maybe your reseller is trying to get rich too fast! I got my Excalibur Carbon last May for a bit over $100.

About the small and fast fish. In the Black Sea they are smaller and faster – believe me. I guess you need to improve your aiming/leading/shooting techniques. And there is no fish among the ones you mentioned that would not allow you to stalk it. It simply means you need to learn also how to stay invisible, including improving your stalking techniques and how to find the most suitable ambush spot. And also how to react when you see the fish. You should also learn how to recognize the most probable direction the fish will approach you from, depending on the behavior of the different species, the wind, the currents and the type of the sea bed. And I am sure that will happen. You just have to try and search for patterns in the fish' behaviour... :)

IB
 

Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
2,982
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Originally posted by Wishbone
Murat,


The Excalibur – the thing in the middle is really the shaft guide. Never had any problems with the shaft guide, but I am using also the longer wishbones. The shorter ones were getting too open due to the band thickness. One way or another – the guide is the cheapest spare part. You can even get a second one closer to the muzzle for more accuracy.

$300 – way too damn much. Maybe your reseller is trying to get rich too fast! I got my Excalibur Carbon last May for a bit over $100.


IB

More shaft guide= More accurate,

I also think 2 of them works better. But why the tech stuff in omer still resist to produce full length rail. I can not understand why. Even Cressi Sub Comanche has it which is half the price of the Alluminium.

Yea the price is too much but everything is expensive here.:waterwork I paid 150 dollars gor Gara 3000 and 60 dollars for Atoll float:waterwork
 

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Can't tell you Murat.

I actually think they might have had such model in the past, but I am maybe confusing it with Picasso.

Anyway, you can check out the new wooden barrel Master America they've released. It's on www.omersub.com

Cheers!

Ivan
 

Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
2,982
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Yea you are talking about Black Master. But it has some serious design problems.
BTW Probably Masters Americas price will be higher than Alluminium so do you think people will pay that money for it or instead they buy Riffe, Totemsub or any other higer quality gun for almost same money.At least its price wont be lower than350-400 dollars here.

BTW what is the price of Alluminium 90 in your local?
 

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Originally posted by Murat
Probably Masters Americas price will be higher than Alluminium so do you think people will pay that money for it or instead they buy Riffe, Totemsub or any other higer quality gun for almost same money.
BTW what is the price of Alluminium 90 in your local?

1st question: I can't possibly know, mate. Let's wait for someone to try it first. And if the gun's OK, then... Why not? I am sure that the marketing people of OMER have asked themselves the same questions before starting the production.

2nd question: I don't know. Have to ask the OMER dealer, but he's at the cost for the first competition for this season. I guess he'll be back in a few days...

IB
 

Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
2,982
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As i said before i am not sure to pay that much money to the 90 cm Alluminum but i can buy 100. Since you are using 100cm carbon gun can you tell me is it easy to hunt small fast fishes with 100 (generally fishes are less than 1 kilo here and almost no wind no tide) I mean do you have difficulties when tracking the fish and is it accurate enough to nail them?
 

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Tracking (or leading, since that's the more accurate term when aiming a speargun) is always harder with longer guns.
But it also provides greater range and power.
It is up to you to find out whether you feel more comfortable with 90 or 100cm gun.

Neither me or any forum can give you the right answer. I had problems with tracking only when the vis was low and I was unable to spot the fish earlier and prepare the gun for the shot. But then I'd use the 90 cm gun or even the 75cm one, especially when the plankton is blooming.

I can't really comprehend that you have only small fish there. Cyprus must be the fish kindergaten of the Med. then and I am sure it's not like that, man. Maybe you just don't know how to get the biger boys.
So your problem is not really the gun, but the lack of experience. Here's what I'll do if I was you - I'd look for a multi purpose gun. Nothing too fancy. In your case that's the 90cm version of ANY euro gun. You can be prepared for different situations by carrying spare band on your buoy. You can get almost any fish with such gun. I'm telling you that, cause I still use the basic Beuchat Arka even on competitions and it worked just fine.

I got my expensive guns when I noticed that some fish I am losing only because of the gun. And let me tell you something more. It took me almost a month to get used to the new gun! But now it works perfect for me and I can really tell what are its benefits compared to the Arka...

And one more piece of advice. Do not listen too much to what people in the forums tell you, cause they fill your head with so many opinions, options and stuf to look at, you may never buy any gun! :D

Go to the dive shop and just get the one you like yourself...

Ivan
 
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fuzz

Hawaiian transplant...
Sep 9, 2002
995
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Originally posted by Wishbone

And one more piece of advice. Do not listen too much to what people in the forums tell you, cause they fill your head with so many opinions, options and stuf to look at, you may never buy any gun! :D


... or end up with way too many... :hmm


Murat, Wishbone really sounds like he knows what he's talking about. If anything, listen to his advice since he's familiar with your diving conditions more than most & his suggestions are really sound!
 

Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
2,982
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Originally posted by Wishbone


I can't really comprehend that you have only small fish there. Cyprus must be the fish kindergaten of the Med. then and I am sure it's not like that, man. Maybe you just don't know how to get the biger boys.


Ivan

Hahaaa.......

Ok as i said before i decide to buy 90 cm but the problem is Alluminium or New Excalibur carbon. I also decide about setup, 18 bands and 6.3 shaft. Now i know new excalibur handle 18 since you are currently using 20 on old versions.

You are right i don't have access to big boys but Cyprus is not fish kindergarden. We have some very experianced speros here whose spearing nore than 30 years theirs biggest achivements are Greater Abberjacks. Even they are very very rarely over 15-20 kg.Nothing else no any pelagic. No mackeral, tuna, sailfish, or anyother. I think the fish heaven in Med sea is Spain. If you think geographically we are the most far place to ocean in med sea.
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
1,503
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hi

Murat is that why the spanish are the best spearfisherman in the world, is the water in spain as blue as other areas of the Med.

cheers
 

Mattedhead

Drying up inland...
Aug 28, 2002
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Murat,
The OMER 6.3mm shaft is awesome. The barb fits flush with the edge of the shaft due to a recessed area on the shaft itself. It is the fastest/most accurate shaft I have shot because of this. It's also pretty resilient as far as bending goes. I saw Mark get one stuck in a rock while diving and it flexed a ton but did not bend. I think it is a great alternative to a 6mm shaft as it has a bit more range.

matt
 
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