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Bad news, from Sweden

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
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rbsub said:
What about the idea that you do it by holding yourself at the border of the pool and lift your finger every 5 seconds? You can inform the life guard or a friend about that.

I think there must be something like a rule to find out the time during which you are safe. All that under the knowledge that it is the best to do it with a partner!!

What you propose it's already a buddy system, when either a lifeguard and friend is watching you. If somebody really watches you close enough to see your finger moving every 5 seconds, then i would rather do a regular training session with no holding on the edge (unless that's your style) and certainly no hand signal every 5 sec, which i suspect will keep your mind busy rather than relaxing.

If you actually meant that somebody at the pool, be it a swimmer or a lifeguard could watch you from time to time, i would not even count on it, who's going to see your finger moving from afar especially when they have other things to attend to?

I know it sucks if you want to do statics and there's nobody to watch you but if you want to be 100% safe, stick to dry statics until you find a buddy or your girlfriend/boyfriend loves you sufficiently enough to stare of your back for minutes on end! rofl
 
Sergiu said:
What you propose it's already a buddy system, when either a lifeguard and friend is watching you. If somebody really watches you close enough to see your finger moving every 5 seconds, then i would rather do a regular training session with no holding on the edge (unless that's your style) and certainly no hand signal every 5 sec, which i suspect will keep your mind busy rather than relaxing.

If you actually meant that somebody at the pool, be it a swimmer or a lifeguard could watch you from time to time, i would not even count on it, who's going to see your finger moving from afar especially when they have other things to attend to?

I know it sucks if you want to do statics and there's nobody to watch you but if you want to be 100% safe, stick to dry statics until you find a buddy or your girlfriend/boyfriend loves you sufficiently enough to stare of your back for minutes on end! rofl

Best approach to the problem by far. I agree get someone to be there all the time, eventually they want to try whats it like to freedive and then your 2 freedivers that can boost eachother to do nice dives and STA.

Be a good ambassador for freediving and don't do it alone.
 
Sergiu said:
stick to dry statics until you find a buddy or your girlfriend/boyfriend loves you sufficiently enough to stare of your back for minutes on end! rofl
Is this what is called "True Love"?
 
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My condolences to family and friends.
But the way how the guy trained has nothing with a normal training. And what is the magic different between spearfishers who mostly hunt alone and freedivers?

Everybody can chock and died during eating or drinking. So never eat alone and ask waitress to watch you at the table.
Everybody can died from apnea during sleep. So, never sleep alone …
 
rsub, for heaven's sake, please do not ever consider doing statics alone in water - regardless if in a pool, tub, lake, or a sea. Always, always, always have a buddy close to you. He must do absolutely nothing else than surveying you closely, permanently, and continuously - best by keeping you by hand and sending you signals by clicking four fingers, and pulling you immediately out if you fail to response to a repeated click.

As Jome already wrote, when training statics, you can blackout anytime - depending on many conditions, so there is no safe limit. You can even blackout few seconds after starting the apnea, if you hyperventilated or packed too much. If you are under stress, not concentrated, nervous, or not perfectly healthy, it can happen easily that you hyperventilate without realizing it at all. Unlike what many think, hyperventilating is not necessarily forceful ventilation, and does not need to take minutes to have effect - it is any type of breathing deeper or faster than normally (leading to lowering the CO2 level).

So if you happen to blackout just at the beginning of your apnea, before a life guard or a friend watching you from distance realize there is something wrong with you, you may be already dead.

There is simply absolutely no point in doing wet static apnea alone - you cannot push to the limits, so such training has zero effect. Either do it dry or find a buddy. Better yet, find a club, of found one, if there is no in your location - it is much safer doing it in an organized environment with more people knowing what to do in case of a problem.

In France we have very strict rules we have to sign when entering a club. Not only we must never train alone, but there must be always an AIDA or FFESSM freediving instructor present, leading the training, and additionally the local pool management in Lyon requires that there must be also a certified lifeguard dedicated only and exclusively to watching us. It means not the main pool lifeguard, but really one that is familiar with freediving and stays involved, alert and very close to us all the time.

Besides it, we are required to make accident simulations, and I can tell you that even if you theoretically know what to do, it is completely different when something really happens. If you do not drill it regularly, you can very easily fail.

These precautions are wise, needed, and not at all expensive if you are well organized - in our club we pay yearly member fees less than 200€ for the professional life guard, the swimming pool (4 hours a week), diving insurance, FFESSM license, and covering the training costs of our instructors. Still there is enough money remaining for covering costs of participation on several competitions for those who are interested in competing.
 
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OK i agree with the usual - never ever dive alone... etc. Even then, that is not accurate in the sense that many people don't know how to safety so are actually a liability to you as a diver. People have died freediving with many other people around (other freedivers in cases) who just aren't prepared.

But, I think that there are safety benefits to be found in having a mindset of 'diving alone'. Not samba-ing, not BO-ing, not packing, not falling into a dangerous margin of uncontrolled risk. Most people don't need to go to extreme hypoxia/hypocapnia to 'train' for freediving. Technique can always be improved in any apnea discipline and technique is something you work on when you're within your limits.

Also, I think that people are entirely entitled to shoot themselves in the foot if that's what they want to do. As long as they're conscious of what they're doing - If you're doing statics on your own in front of a bunch of children who then think that this is how you do it - this is clearly irresponsible because they don't know the risks, they only see the 'cool' side. If there is a 'cool' side to solo statics... (?)

If you want to reduce the really dangerous aspect of freediving - take away the time & the depth.

f
 
Sorry, turtle, but I think there is no point in training solo at all -you cannot train any technique in static apnea without a risk. And if you are speaking about training dynamics, then your argument about children watching you and then doing the same is valid here even more. Find a training partner or a club. Point. Found a club if there is none - you will always find people alike. Do not train alone. I can understand that when diving recreationally at the sea, it is often impossible and impracticable to have a buddy, but there is no point in training alone in a pool.
 
trux said:
you cannot train any technique in static apnea without a risk. ... but there is no point in training alone in a pool.

I take your points trux. With regards to poolwork & technique:

static - relaxation, visualisations, breathe-up routines
dynamic - stroke technique, weighting, turns, starts & finishes

I would consider any of these to be an inefficient use of time with a trained safety partner.

Would you say that every element of your pool dynamics are as efficient as they could be? Same goes for the statics? These are all things that you can only work on properly outside of the pressures of 'performing'.

fred
 
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turtle said:
dynamic - stroke technique, weighting, turns, starts & finishes
These are the only things that I train alone. I still don't see the point of doing statics of more than a few seconds alone.

Even then, that is not accurate in the sense that many people don't know how to safety so are actually a liability to you as a diver.
I agree - many people have done the theory, but don't know how to supervise someone properly and what to do if something goes wrong. There are also people who are actually a danger to others - I feel safer alone than with someone who might play a joke on me or have a panic attack. Either of these could put me in serious danger.
 
Do I understand it right that everybody of you has a buddy when doing easy O2 or CO2 tables? And the buddy is always on your side for 30 to 45 minutes?

Or how do you practice these tables in the water?
 
rbsub said:
Do I understand it right that everybody of you has a buddy when doing easy O2 or CO2 tables? And the buddy is always on your side for 30 to 45 minutes?
Yes, exactly. Better told, we make 60 min wet static sessions twice a week.

rbsub said:
Or how do you practice these tables in the water?
We train all together - usually in groups of at least three freedivers. We do the tables or other exercises together, holding each other by hands / fingers and sending random clicks around. If someone fails to respond, you repeat the click immediately, and if there is no response you pull the person immediately out of the water. Additionally, as I wrote, there is the professional life guard who is watching us closely and without having anything else to do. He is an ex freediver and spearo, so he knows exactly how it works, and reacts perfectly, when something does not go well.
 
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I don't do tables in the water. I don't see the point of it, as I can push myself much harder dry, and also my buddy would get very bored, as some of the tables I do are about 50min. zzz
 
Ok, I get it!

I think in the future I will practice my tables only with dry statics.

For my dynamics I don't have any problems. I do it weekly in my diving club in a group. My problem is that the diving club is very scuba-oriented and nobody has serious interest in static training.
 
To summarize, I think this is the "norm" for most sport freedivers:

Dry practice, with or without a friend/buddy present
1. O2 - CO2 tables (I don't ever use these, never really worked for me)
2. Exhale statics
3. Full lung statics
4. Pranayama
5. Apnea walking/cycling

Wet practice, with direct supervision (buddy within arm's reach who is not also performing apnea, actively watching you for signs of hypoxia, hypocapnia, hypercapnia, or anything else unusual, keeping time and prompting you for safety signals as agreed (usually following AIDA conventions T-1min, T-30sec, Target time, T+15sec, T+30sec, T+45sec, etc….)
1. Full lung statics (warm-ups and target attempts)
2. Negative pressure/exhale statics (I don't find these very useful or safe)

Dynamic apnea (ideally, two spotters to cover each end of the pool lane with kick boards and wearing bi fins and snorkels so that they can better support you if you have a blackout).
1. 70-100% Max attempts

Dynamic apnea training (with a buddy, one up, one down supervision so that you can both "workout" at the same time)
1. Apnea interval training
2. 25m repeats for technique
3. 50m-100m repeats (depending on your ability)

Note the absence of "Lifeguard Supervision" in this outline. In my opinion, and having had training as a lifeguard, there is no way a lifeguard can properly supervise you for static apnea in the pool, not unless, as trux points out, they are trained to look for hypoxia and other signs of distress and are ONLY supervising you and your pool lane.

The whole point of static apnea in a pool or training for dynamic is to make it intense enough to stimulate adaptation. And if you make it that intense, you'll be nearing your limit. Problem is your limit changes daily to some degree most of the time, or drastically on the unlucky day.

Anyone else have practice protocols or set up to share?

Pete
 
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