Beeing afraid of max attempts ...

[Scorp]

Hi guys!

I searched around in the forums, but I didn't find any related topic, so I thought I open a new thread.

Since quite some time now I am litteraly afraid to do DYN maximum attempts in the pool. The ones I did, in competition and in training, were always no-warm-up dives. As everybody knows, such dives are not comfortable, and I was always tortured by the contractions. But nevertheless, I did the dives and got good results (168m beeing the best). In the last months I trained mainly with CO2 tables, and now, close to a competition, I urged my self to do some max attempts. What happened is that I surfaced at 100m every time.

I think there are two factors preventing me from going on:
1) the contractions that start around 50m, and when I am at 100 they are hard and I just don't want to go through it and give up --- i somehow really fear them, even though I know they are "my friends" :yack
2) I never had a BO so far, and maybe I am afraid that might happen some day. I know well that it isn't a big deal (I always dive with safety of course), but, you know ...

don't call me a pussy, did that already many times myself, didn't help much ...

what advise could you give from your own experience? How can I get over this?

Thanks,
Ivo

 

[Simos]

Firstly let me say I am a relative beginner sounds like part of the problem is in your head so I would spend a bit of time 'reprogramming' your brain... A few thoughts:

1. Forget about round numbers (50m, 100m) and number of lengths etc. Make a point to not end your dive at the end of the pool. Just stop before the end of the pool or just do the turn and then surface if you are nearing the end... Do some dives between 85-95m and end them on a positive feeling, before it gets really tough. The aim is to end it feeling that there's plenty left in the tank..

2. Focus a part of your training on enjoyment and positive feelings - sounds like you have created a mental 'fear' of how unpleasant the hard part will be based on previous experience

3. Might be beneficial to do some dynamics where you start with higher CO2 than normal so should get earlier and stronger contractions but you should have less worry about a BO so that you can work purely on relaxing during the contractions?

Interested to read advise from others too on this as I had similar feelings too and I am very careful about BOs...

 

[azapa]

No answers here, there won't be any I guess, just some thoughts:

- you seem to be worrying about BO'ing. As you may imagine it is nothing at all to worry about with great safety, they are even quite nice sometimes. Loose that worry.
- do you show signs of hypoxia at 100m to warrant bailing? any small shakes? If not just tell yourself you are fine and push on
- no warm ups DO NOT always mean pain and suffering. I can ONLY do long swims that way now, and learned to love them. It takes about 1 year of regular training to get to that stage. I love how these swims only feel crap for the first half, the second half is always "dreamy" and I always remember the swims as being very nice. Learn to look forward to them.
- don't do MAX swims. Just tell your buddy you are going to try a SEMI max, like an 80% effort. Then, you cheat if you feel good and carry on. (your buddy must know well you if you plan to try this trick).

good luck

 

[Kars]

Ok, here are some of mine thoughts.

Be very well rested, take your time to relax, sleep, putting on your suit, getting in, relaxing, breathing. No official top etc, I just whenever you feel ready.

The problem can be you're focussing or are distracted by the thought of time/distance etc. I have the same.
What helps for me is to view the max as a scientific search project. Next Sunday I'll try for another max in DNF, and I'll try a few new things and see how it goes. Hopefully the dive can affirm or bring me more understanding.

Now onto the comfort question.

I'm working on improving my preparation so that every dive is nice and smooth, long and comfortable. Like you I normally face early and hard contractions. in DNF from 40m on. Now two weeks ago I changed my preparation. It's goal is now to bring my blood-flow low, retain much CO2 and still be 100% O2 saturated. I breath very slow and shallow from the belly, eyes closed, final exhale a bit deeper, slow inhale, some packs and then very slowly go down, wait for the HR to drop, and push off slowly. When I'm swimming my focus is on fluid soft motion, eyes nearly closed, maintaining that low blood-flow and nice rhythm. The result was my first contraction was very soft and started 25m(!) later.
After that I speed up my swimming a bit, but still the mind is very clear and the contractions soft. I turn slowly making sure I keep my head down not to disturb the peace within. As I view it, a freediver can only loose relaxation after he starts moving.

This weekend I'm going to add a little static (20-30sec) at depth before pushing off and swimming. Also I'll keep the slow 35s/25m pace to the end of the dive. During the dive my mind is in the now, I focus only on blood-flow and swimming.

Another observation I have made is that all of my pb's are dives where I dropped my expectations. The reason was usually that something destroyed my expectations. Something like being tired, feeling not ready, sudden hurried start, etc.

I think we can have pretty comfortable maximum dives if we improve our technique.

Your feedback is very welcome!

Kars

 

[rafacuatic]

Just some thoughts in my experience.
-Change the mind from CO2 tables,they are hard and fast, but the pain last less,sometimes one lap...A max DYN is a long way with diferent feelings and fases,most of them emotional about distance (how much more,the walls,bad or good thoughts,etc)and endure the urge to breath.
-So,you have to adapt your mind and body again to max swims,and for me the best exercise is long and slow DYN,maybe with rubber fins or "bad" technic,just focusing in relaxation,control the contractions,flow,cadence,and don't think about distance,only in hipoxic feelings.
-When you have this "control " for long time DYN again,just try with your personal max system.Then the contractions will feel less hard without intellectualize them and free of thoughts.Just move and relax.

 

[Goran Colak]

Don't dive out at 100m.

Hi guys!

what advise could you give from your own experience? How can I get over this?

Thanks,
Ivo

 

[Kars]

Don't dive out at 100m.

LOL! - the mysterious sound of the master

 

[manttone]

When doing longer dives, 100 meters is always a mental threshold for me. At that point I usually start thinking that this doesn't feel good and this dive is not going anywhere. However, once over the 100 m the rest of the dive just flows. To get over the threshold I'm thinking about my goals. The dive doesn't feel good but so what. No pain, no progress. That gives me positive energy. As mentioned before relaxation before and during the dive is crucial (not easy though especially during the dive). For relaxation during the dive I use counting the undulations and turn my focus on the technique. Just force yourself over the 100 m repeatedly and it soon becomes just one part of the dive.

Mikko

 

[maui400]

I'm normally also rather afraid before a max attempt. Sometimes even the day before and it gets worse the closer it gets to it.
Recently I started with Yoga. Already by now I'm surprised that there are moments where I think of a max attempt and even feel good. (Next step would be to actually do a max in this kind of state...)
Anyway Yoga seems to relax me and give me confidence.
You might want to read a few articles of a somebody describing these kinds of feelings quite well:
Swimming a 200m
AIDA pool competition
another door unlocked

You're not alone!

Btw.: I can agree with azapa's last two points, especially

 

[Scorp]

thanks for this imput! some very interesting points!

Like Simos says, of course the problem is my head. I don't have any hypoxic symptoms after 100 m, I simply surface cause don't want to push further through the hard contractions. I know they will last for at least another 40 m (until 140, 145), and that really turns me off. In my experience, it is not like azapa says, that just half of the dive is crap, the rest nice and "dreamy". It's 1/3 beautiful, then 1/3 hard struggle, and then 1/3 (or less) still a struggle, just a little bit less cruel.
Nevertheless, azapas point could be a good motivation to carry on after 100m; like "I am curious to see when this positive feeling finally kicks in". I will really keep that in mind and try to say it to myself while having the nasty contractions: "go on, beyond this the dive will be beautiful again". I need such mantras, they distract me and keep me positively tuned.

Kars, I prepare for a dive pretty much the way you describe: don't do any warm up dives, just 20 min of stretching half an hour before, no special breathing routine, just tidal breathing to keep CO2 high, then last breath, some packs, and go. And I will never go back to any warm-up method again, cause the clean surfacing after a long dive you get with this approach is the best reward for having endured the pain. but there is pain, and so far I am not at all close to the point where azapa says to be, the point where I love these max attempts. It is, however, ecouraging to here that there is a chance one gets used to this self-flagellation with time and doesn't suffer so much anymore.

What Goran says, probably sums it up very well: just don't dive out at 100m.
Since you chimed in, Goran, may I ask you how your endless DYN dives feel? You experience them as "dreamy" and lovely, at least for the second half of the dive, or you struggle hard for a considerable part of it? How do you get control over the bad feeling contractions give?

I think the contraction thing is the worst part of the fear of max attempts I currently experience. BO may be less an issue...

I did only CO2 pyramid training in the last months, and quite a lot of it. But i like it, and I don't have any problems beeing rocked by contractions during this training. It should actually prepare you to endure them more easily in max swims, and that's what I hoped would also happen to me. But now I am rather scared off. :head

I will use 3 mantras in my next max dive:
a) "I have still plenty of oxygen in my blood (despite the f#*%ing contractions want to make me believe I have not)";
b) "this struggle will end soon, and beyond the dive will be beautiful again (despite the f#*%ing contractions want to make me believe it will not)";
c) "don't dive out at 100m / don't dive out at 150m / don't dive out at 200m / don't dive out at 250 m" --- and I got you, Goran!

(... of course I will skip the part with the contractions ...)

any imput is most welcome!
cheers,
Ivo

 

[Scorp]

just read the last two postings, also very helpful!

manttone:

When doing longer dives, 100 meters is always a mental threshold for me. At that point I usually start thinking that this doesn't feel good and this dive is not going anywhere. However, once over the 100 m the rest of the dive just flows. To get over the threshold I'm thinking about my goals. The dive doesn't feel good but so what. No pain, no progress.

that's it, exactly! that's the attitude i seemingly lost and want to have back.
like Goran said: just don't dive out at 100m.

@ maui400:
Yeah, thanks, I know that I am not alone, recently quite some of my friends here are also afflicted by the same symptoms. Maybe its also a consequence of a bit of overtraining...
I know the excellent articles Tangui wrote, and i recognize myself in his descriptions of the feelings before and during a dive.
Concerning Yoga, I know it would probably help, but unfortunately I am not so much of a Yogini myself.

 

[trux]

I'd tell be thankful for the fear. It works for you. The bigger fear you have, the better DR, and the longer distance you can get under the belt. The only hiccup is not to give up in the middle of the swimm when it begins being hard. For that you need good determination. Visualize the swim just before leaving, including the suffering, but be determined to go through it. Don't try fooling yourelf it will be easy. Keep being afraid, fear the pain, but stay determined.

 

[Kars]

I'd tell be thankful for the fear. It works for you. The bigger fear you have, the better DR, and the longer distance you can get under the belt. The only hiccup is not to give up in the middle of the swimm when it begins being hard. For that you need good determination. Visualize the swim just before leaving, including the suffering, but be determined to go through it. Don't try fooling yourelf it will be easy. Keep being afraid, fear the pain, but stay determined.

Ivo, though it goes against the current consensus, I must add a nuance to the 'fear is good, because it saves O2' idea. Though not applicable to everyone, I and many others will consume loads of O2 trying to out think fear. When this does not work and we land in a (useless)thinking loop, we're wasting loads of O2. When the thought loop speeds up into an uncontrolled spiral we are panicking! Surely we can agree that panic is not saving any O2, but rather doing the opposite, burning loads.

Now let's find out on how do we exactly (can) benefit from stress?

Personally I've benefited from a sudden additional stress, and I did it through dropping my expectations totally. Having No hope or expectations saves O2 because I do not even attempt to guess where I am, nor how far I can go with my current amount of O2. It simply cancels the estimation/calculation process. It brings my mind into the now, a narrow perception of just feeling the water, just relaxing, rhythm and passing the time near thoughtlessly swimming.
My last DNF dive I had a brief moment of fear when I went under, I felt like not ready, but since there was no way back this near instantly turned into 'we'll see' to 'keep my bloodflow low, swim smoothly'. I recall I was not measuring my sensations until I hit about 60m, when I noticed things were going pretty nice, comfortable and smooth, and it's getting interesting

 

[trux]

In contrary, the panic is excellent! Just keep it, disassociate from it, look at it from above, and go ahead The fear and panic are only bad when you surrender to them, but if you are determined and ready for them to come, they are helping you.

 

[sebastien murat]

Who said you at the start at the wall anyway...start at +10m or +20m and proceed through the turn. Once you get your groove back, proceed to drop back to the wall.

Seb

 

[sebastien murat]

I've been afraid plenty of times. But I never blindly go...which would be idiotic and in which case you should be really afraid, quit and take up ice-hokey or something. I'm sure you'll get it back. The fear tends to happen when you've progressed really quickly but the performance hasn't been cemented, i.e., you haven't mastered the distance.

Seb

 

[Kars]

The fear tends to happen when you've progressed really quickly but the performance hasn't been cemented, i.e., you haven't mastered the distance.

Seb

I had that too Heading for the surface thinking "this is way too easy!"
Let's hope I'll have that next Sunday on my next max DNF experiment.

 

[trux]

When I wrote about determination, I meant ignoring the fear, but not going blindly past your limits. As I wrote, you just need to disassociate from the fear - it is just a body reaction, keep going, and keep evaluating the body signals, and go up when you feel hypoxic signs (assuming you learned recognizing them). Fear, contractions, and urge to breathe are not signs of hypoxia, so there is no reason to surface. Often it is enough realizing they are your friends, not enemies, and you get over it.

 

[tcrusson]

Great topic! Before my max dynamics, the ones that work, I always shit myself (palpitations, difficulty breathing, dry mouth, etc.). But that stops as soon as my head hits the water. It's a very specific type of stress.

And then there is the other type of fear, the one you describe, where there is tension and anxiety before the swim which stays after the swim starts. Before I get to a new PB, I always have this phase where I face a wall and bail out at 50m or 100m. It can last for a long time, especially if I keep trying without changing anything.

The only way I found to get over it was to give it a rest for a while, and change something in the routine
- On my first wall, I took a break for a month and when I came back I was full of stamina and ready for a fight. I believe the mental block was due to over-training and self doubt after so many aborted attempts
- On the second wall, I rested again, and switched to no warm-up (cf. a post I wrote at the time)
- On the third wall, I stopped trying, focused on depth for a while, and then when I came back to it a door unlocked

I believe your head is smart enough to know when to let you push, and when you're not ready (and that our egos get in the way). Do you think you may have been over-training a bit lately?

 

[Mullins]

Getting over that hump is a big thing for me. It's more pronounced in DNF - feels horrible between 75 - 125m then gets a lot easier.