I was wondering wether it is better to tuck in you shoulders as much as possible to be as streamline as possible or is it better to be a little more relaxed to save the oxygen? or is it just preferance. I'm still trying to find what I think is best. What do you think?
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better to be completly streamline or save a little oxygen?
- Thread starterAquatic_Being
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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What a crucial question.
Could be refrased like this:
Is it better to spend one year training to adopt an efficient hydrodynamic style.
In the begining achieving LESS result...
Or is it better to go for a relaxed style that DIRECTLY will show improvements in results - up to a point where progress will stop (due to inefficient hydrodynamics).
Sebastian
Could be refrased like this:
Is it better to spend one year training to adopt an efficient hydrodynamic style.
In the begining achieving LESS result...
Or is it better to go for a relaxed style that DIRECTLY will show improvements in results - up to a point where progress will stop (due to inefficient hydrodynamics).
Sebastian
This is a topic that comes up from time to time. There are a couple of things to consider
speed of motion (the faster you go the more important streamlining is and vica-versa)
dive response (early in a dive the dive response is not as strong so O2 will be used by the streamlining muscles whereas later with a strong dive response the vasoconstriction should make the streamlining uncomfortable but not taxing on your o2 stores
speed of motion (the faster you go the more important streamlining is and vica-versa)
dive response (early in a dive the dive response is not as strong so O2 will be used by the streamlining muscles whereas later with a strong dive response the vasoconstriction should make the streamlining uncomfortable but not taxing on your o2 stores
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My experience is that extending your arms is beneficial if:
1. Speed is more than .9m/s and you are not wearing a wetsuit
OR
2. Speed is more than 1.1m/s and you are wearing a 3mm or thinner suit
OR
3. Speed is more than 1.3m/s and you are wearing a 5mm or thicker suit
Just my own opinion from my own experiments.
1. Speed is more than .9m/s and you are not wearing a wetsuit
OR
2. Speed is more than 1.1m/s and you are wearing a 3mm or thinner suit
OR
3. Speed is more than 1.3m/s and you are wearing a 5mm or thicker suit
Just my own opinion from my own experiments.
More resistance to put your arms up with a thicker wetsuit. You can get around this if you get a custom suit with the arms pointing up.
Also makes a big difference how flexible you are and much you practise with arms up. When I first started doing a tight streamline for dynamic it took a lot of energy and felt uncomfortable, now it takes very little. It's like any new technique if you try it once in blue moon it won't benefit you that much, you have to train it and get used to it.
With no-fins dynamic I get a benefit from a tight swimmers streamline even at speeds lower then .9m/s, it extends the glide phase. Mind you with no-fins you have no choice you always have an arms out front phase.. unless you are doing something really wrong.
:duh
Cheers,
Wal
Also makes a big difference how flexible you are and much you practise with arms up. When I first started doing a tight streamline for dynamic it took a lot of energy and felt uncomfortable, now it takes very little. It's like any new technique if you try it once in blue moon it won't benefit you that much, you have to train it and get used to it.
With no-fins dynamic I get a benefit from a tight swimmers streamline even at speeds lower then .9m/s, it extends the glide phase. Mind you with no-fins you have no choice you always have an arms out front phase.. unless you are doing something really wrong.
:duh Cheers,
Wal
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Also rather then just thinking about the speed you are going also look at energy expenditure. For example if you are flat out sprinting then the energy difference/O2 consumption between arms out front and arms by side is almost none. Thus you gain streamlining without penalty.
If you are gliding, not using your legs at all then the difference in O2 consumption between the 2 becomes more noticeable.
So on a constant dive, arms out front has no drawbacks at all at the start of the dive, and kicking off the bottom. It may or may not help on the glide phase depending on many factors - technique, speed, flexibilty etc. So you could choose to use arms in front for most of the dive, and simply have them by the side for the glide phase as another option.
If you are gliding, not using your legs at all then the difference in O2 consumption between the 2 becomes more noticeable.
So on a constant dive, arms out front has no drawbacks at all at the start of the dive, and kicking off the bottom. It may or may not help on the glide phase depending on many factors - technique, speed, flexibilty etc. So you could choose to use arms in front for most of the dive, and simply have them by the side for the glide phase as another option.
My observation for speed and dynamic range is that both get drastically effected by the position of my arms and head using bi-fins and not wearing a wetsuit:
1- If I relax my arms thru elbows slightly, my speed is effected the least
2- If I tilt my head up, speed is effected more than in #1. In case of fully looking forward, significant impact to my speed.
3- If I let my arms to my sides, speed is impacted the most. It is like dragging a parachute under water.
With dolphin kick, I can't completely judge the effect of body streamlining to speed, as I do not have a good technique (old injury to left knee still bothering me).
Regards
Erman
1- If I relax my arms thru elbows slightly, my speed is effected the least
2- If I tilt my head up, speed is effected more than in #1. In case of fully looking forward, significant impact to my speed.
3- If I let my arms to my sides, speed is impacted the most. It is like dragging a parachute under water.
With dolphin kick, I can't completely judge the effect of body streamlining to speed, as I do not have a good technique (old injury to left knee still bothering me).
Regards
Erman
Let's also keep in mind that the four longest distances ever swam in dynamic apnea were done with arms by the side:
1. Tom Sietas 215m
2. Tom Sietas 212m
3. Stephane Mifsud 209m 4'09"
4. Tom Sietas 208m 3'33"
Those were done with bifins, but Seb Murat has done some 200m+ swims with a mono, arms by his sides. In his case he did thousands of swims to compare arms up vs. arms by his side and found he could swim 10% farther with arms by his sides.
1. Tom Sietas 215m
2. Tom Sietas 212m
3. Stephane Mifsud 209m 4'09"
4. Tom Sietas 208m 3'33"
Those were done with bifins, but Seb Murat has done some 200m+ swims with a mono, arms by his sides. In his case he did thousands of swims to compare arms up vs. arms by his side and found he could swim 10% farther with arms by his sides.
Can't argue with the records, but what is the explaination. It is indisputable that hands forward is far more streamlined. Provided the conditions are right (no or minimal suit, flexible shoulders) it seems hard to believe that holding the arms up uses more energy than would be lost to drag. What gives????
Are they going so slow on these long dynamics that drag is a minimal factor?
Is there something physiological other that 02 consumption that would explain the results?
Something else?
Connor
Are they going so slow on these long dynamics that drag is a minimal factor?
Is there something physiological other that 02 consumption that would explain the results?
Something else?
Connor
I would say that at the speeds Tom and Stephane are swimming (incredibly slowly), that it simply takes too much energy to hold up the arms. Realize also that in the pool it takes more energy to hold up your arms than when diving, because the different direction of gravity.
However in Seb Murat's case the explanation must be different. He has sprinted 50m in 15.X seconds, just over the world record, with his arms by his side... that's almost 4m/s... and yet he still found he could cover the distance faster with his arms by his sides.
However in Seb Murat's case the explanation must be different. He has sprinted 50m in 15.X seconds, just over the world record, with his arms by his side... that's almost 4m/s... and yet he still found he could cover the distance faster with his arms by his sides.
efattah said:
[OT] That should be at most 3.3 m/s, not almost 4m/s (which would be 12.5 sec)
Well, I am amazed by the info you have stated here. I can't find the times for the dynamic records, so what were the speeds?
One of the reasons, for my bias (conscious or otherwise) could be that streamlined position gives me the flexibility to easily adjust my depth in a shallow pool.
but, why do I feel that I am dragging a parachute with my arms to my side, no idea. Although, I am over 6-3" and can be considered on the muscular side for the upperbody, I am not a guy with exteremely wide shoulders. Perhaps, I have to repeat my observations as I can't argue with the facts.
By the way, how about previous record holder Peter Petersen ? I think he had his hands in front, am I right?
E
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Try doing a static with your hands in finswim position compared to hanging relaxed . This is basically how guys like Tom Sietas (and myself as well although not comparable distance wise) approach dynamics. Namely a static in (slow)motion. The trick is ,if you are very good at long statics, to make a dynamic look as similar as possible to a static. E.g. all muscles completely relaxed except the ones used for slow bi-fin propulsion (legs). (Mono does not work with this approach, since too many muscles are involved)
So having your arms flutter in the current being directed by the waterfow extends the static feeling only more.
Thats why you see exagerated dynamic swim times by these approaches (3:30+ for Toms swims).
So having your arms flutter in the current being directed by the waterfow extends the static feeling only more.
Thats why you see exagerated dynamic swim times by these approaches (3:30+ for Toms swims).
hi
always feel arms by my side feel best once i have pushed off. I think its down to the speed i push off from the side of the pool as nits certainly faster from there but once that momentum has being used up by the side feels best. Would the extra bouyancy in the sea make having them in front of you easier to maintain than in a pool situation even though it affects the whole body ?
Regards Feargus
always feel arms by my side feel best once i have pushed off. I think its down to the speed i push off from the side of the pool as nits certainly faster from there but once that momentum has being used up by the side feels best. Would the extra bouyancy in the sea make having them in front of you easier to maintain than in a pool situation even though it affects the whole body ?
Regards Feargus
hi,
some thoughts:
peter p was doing his 200m dyn with a mono in around 2 min, 30 sec per 50m lap (if i remember correctly). stefane mifsud with bifins swims around 1 min per 50m.
it has been mentioned that drag increases exponentially with speed and that streamlining becomes more important the faster you go. so, i guess it depends on personal preference wether to be slow and relaxed (not very streamlined) or fast and more tense (streamlined). of course, it goes without saying that even in a relaxed body position streamlining is very important.
i see a lot of people who are not having a very streamlined position with extended arms at all (limited shoulder flexibility, arched back, etc) and only think they are more efficient when in fact they are not. so, extended arms is only a benefit if it is done properly.
here is what peter told me regarding his technique training:
quote:" When I started using the monofin, it felt natural from the beginning, so I guess that it has been easier for me to learn, than it will be for many others. My training was 4 times 2 hours a week in the water for almost 2 years prior to the World Record-attempt (and) has been 60% technique-training."
cheers,
roland
some thoughts:
peter p was doing his 200m dyn with a mono in around 2 min, 30 sec per 50m lap (if i remember correctly). stefane mifsud with bifins swims around 1 min per 50m.
it has been mentioned that drag increases exponentially with speed and that streamlining becomes more important the faster you go. so, i guess it depends on personal preference wether to be slow and relaxed (not very streamlined) or fast and more tense (streamlined). of course, it goes without saying that even in a relaxed body position streamlining is very important.
i see a lot of people who are not having a very streamlined position with extended arms at all (limited shoulder flexibility, arched back, etc) and only think they are more efficient when in fact they are not. so, extended arms is only a benefit if it is done properly.
here is what peter told me regarding his technique training:
quote:" When I started using the monofin, it felt natural from the beginning, so I guess that it has been easier for me to learn, than it will be for many others. My training was 4 times 2 hours a week in the water for almost 2 years prior to the World Record-attempt (and) has been 60% technique-training."
cheers,
roland
A fascinating and confusing discussion.
Glennv's comments may be a clue, treating a dynamic like a static in slow motion. Maybe the sum total of the experiance is enough to trump the higher drag, especially when going slow. I've used something similar with good results. I'm going to try it hands down and see if there is any improvement.
Does anyone know if Seb is doing long dynamics hands down very fast? Hands down might be faster for short distances but not efficient going fast for the long haul.
Finally, is it possible that swimming mechanics of the mid and lower body can be so much more efficient hands down than hands up that it overcomes the higher drag??
Connor
Glennv's comments may be a clue, treating a dynamic like a static in slow motion. Maybe the sum total of the experiance is enough to trump the higher drag, especially when going slow. I've used something similar with good results. I'm going to try it hands down and see if there is any improvement.
Does anyone know if Seb is doing long dynamics hands down very fast? Hands down might be faster for short distances but not efficient going fast for the long haul.
Finally, is it possible that swimming mechanics of the mid and lower body can be so much more efficient hands down than hands up that it overcomes the higher drag??
Connor
ok so I dont do long dynamics but i do a lot of laps. There is a few things I have learned.
If you are as streamlined as possible it takes less effort. this means trying to be a needle in the water. This requires core conditioning. A good way to improve on this (for me) was to practice swimming as slow as possible.
Bubbles= drag!
Head postion does make a difference even on the surface. Look directly at the bottom. Ok now what does this do to your hands. So put them out front to form a needle and save ur head
ok the water will support you so you have to provide the balance to be streamlined and reduce drag. The key to balance is practice practice practice! It never ends if you want to improve!
Slow slow slow, you will spot drag faster while coasting besides it creates bliss that can turn a bad workout into a good one.
once you get these things down its just a matter of pouring on the speed if you think you need it.
thanxs Terry
jim
If you are as streamlined as possible it takes less effort. this means trying to be a needle in the water. This requires core conditioning. A good way to improve on this (for me) was to practice swimming as slow as possible.
Bubbles= drag!
Head postion does make a difference even on the surface. Look directly at the bottom. Ok now what does this do to your hands. So put them out front to form a needle and save ur head
ok the water will support you so you have to provide the balance to be streamlined and reduce drag. The key to balance is practice practice practice! It never ends if you want to improve!
Slow slow slow, you will spot drag faster while coasting besides it creates bliss that can turn a bad workout into a good one.
once you get these things down its just a matter of pouring on the speed if you think you need it.
thanxs Terry
jim